Republicans have alot of work to do....

Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby NightShade » May 18, 2009 3:06 am

Clubtender wrote:The topic is enhanced interrogation techniques, not torture.


Oh, now that you point that out it's so clear. Touche. The point is given. :roll:
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby BeaverFever » May 18, 2009 1:43 pm

You can't "prepare" for torture or "enhanced interrogation". Just because you know you are going to be waterboarded doesn't make it any less unpleasant when you actually are being waterboarded. The terrorists probably already assumed that "Great Satan" American does horrible things to its prisoners anyways.

More to the point though, the "enhanced interrogation" is just plain ineffective. Most of the useful intelligence gained was done through traditional interrogation means: the god-cop, bad-cop, building a 'relationship" with the subject, etc. The FBI claims that the private government contractors who were brought in to do the "enhanced interrogation" were "amaturish and ineffective" and had ruined the raport they had built up with their prisoners and produced no new information. In fact, after being tortured, the suspects could not remember even basic details about themselves or recent events that they had previously provided on numerous occasions and that they were more likely to fabricate information they thought would please their torturers and end their suffering.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby lesterBfearsome » May 22, 2009 4:32 pm

i don't know who mancow is but he got waterboarded and instantly changed his mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby NJguy » May 22, 2009 5:57 pm

lesterBfearsome wrote:i don't know who mancow is but he got waterboarded and instantly changed his mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0


That wasn't even proper water boarding, its supposed to cover the mouth and nose. But honestly its not fuckin torture. Its an effective technique to scare the shit out of people.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby lesterBfearsome » May 22, 2009 6:06 pm

i bet it hurts like hell, making it torture.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 22, 2009 9:01 pm

lesterBfearsome wrote:i bet it hurts like hell, making it torture.

It's a mind trick. The terrorist is laid flat on his back with his head tilted back. A cloth is placed over his face. Water is trickled on to the cloth. The result is that the terrorist's nose and sinuses fill with water and the air breathed in through his mouth is wet. It is impossible for the terrorist to drown and they are even told that it is impossible for them to drown. Even knowing that he can not drown, the terrorist's brain tells him that he is indeed drowning. That's the whole trick behind waterboarding and it works.

It would be more painful and dangerous to fire a water pick up your nose.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby NightShade » May 23, 2009 2:20 pm

Clubtender wrote:It would be more painful and dangerous to fire a water pick up your nose.


I guess that's why the Spanish during the Inquisition, the Imperial Japanese, the Gestapo, and the Khmer Rouge utilized it, and they weren't constrained in their methods.

When ex-CIA operatives who have been water boarded and experienced other forms of torture call it torture I put a bit more stock in their word.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 23, 2009 3:39 pm

NightShade wrote:
Clubtender wrote:It would be more painful and dangerous to fire a water pick up your nose.


I guess that's why the Spanish during the Inquisition, the Imperial Japanese, the Gestapo, and the Khmer Rouge utilized it, and they weren't constrained in their methods.

Same name, totally different process. The process which you refer to was to tie a person to a "see-saw" type board and raise one end to totally submerge a person's head into a tub of water on the other end of the board. This is not the process that the US calls waterboarding.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby lesterBfearsome » May 23, 2009 4:26 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNeqKl8oUWk

mccain thinks its torture...


why can't the far right just give it up? this is 1 issue that we could have unity on.

this is the bush legacy; fighting over torture.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Canadian_Ambassador » May 23, 2009 4:33 pm

McCain would've probably done the same thing Obama's doing right now, so Republicans really should let this issue go and accept that they're wrong for once. It's like Bush who thinks he never made a mistake, you have leftovers from that era who really think that they should 'stay the course' no matter how badly your argument fails.

It's easier to say it's not torture when you've never been waterboarded. Seeing that conservative radio host Mancow changed his mind, it proves that the reason why Hannity wouldn't accept Olbermann's challenge is because he doesn't want to let down his fans by being forced to admit on national television that it is torture. It's easier to hold the position when you never had to face it yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcNA5ZxkCxY

The proof keeps piling up that it is in fact torture. The only ones that continue to say it's not torture, like Sean Hannity, are the ones who won't go through it themselves. If you really don't think it's torture and just harmless 'interrogation' then by all means get a friend or family member to put you through it. Until then, STFU because if you're afraid to try it yourself then maybe there's a reason for that fear.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 23, 2009 7:57 pm

Your call folks. Do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2jKe5zAS9E to a few terrorists to gain necessary information to defend your nation or allow thousands more of your own people to die?

The only difference between the US and other nations is that we admit that we do this.

If 3000 Canadians had just been killed and there was an eminent danger of follow up attacks on Canada, do you honestly believe that the Canadian Government wouldn't wash out the sinuses of a few scumbag terrorists to save Canadian lives? If you say no, you are in denial.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 23, 2009 8:03 pm

lesterBfearsome wrote:why can't the far right just give it up? this is 1 issue that we could have unity on.

this is the bush legacy; fighting over torture.

Why wasn't waterboarding torture in 2002 and 2003 when the Democrat members of Congress were briefed on it while it was happening, but only became torture in time for the 2006 election?
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Canadian_Ambassador » May 23, 2009 9:13 pm

Clubtender wrote:Your call folks. Do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2jKe5zAS9E to a few terrorists to gain necessary information to defend your nation or allow thousands more of your own people to die?

The only difference between the US and other nations is that we admit that we do this.


What other nations are you comparing yourself to? While one session of waterboarding under conditions where you can stop it within seconds may not have any long term damage, there are reports of damage to the lungs and sometimes even brain damage caused by asphyxiation.

Clubtender wrote:If 3000 Canadians had just been killed and there was an eminent danger of follow up attacks on Canada, do you honestly believe that the Canadian Government wouldn't wash out the sinuses of a few scumbag terrorists to save Canadian lives? If you say no, you are in denial.


Your argument could easily be used for much worse torture than waterboarding. I mean they might kill another 3000 Canadians, why not cut off their baby fingers to get them to talk? It's not like they can't live without them and the act certainly isn't comparible to killing 3000 Canadians. There's lots more you can justify, than just waterboarding, once you start using emotion to make the claim that something isn't torture.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby lesterBfearsome » May 24, 2009 1:45 am

Clubtender wrote:
lesterBfearsome wrote:why can't the far right just give it up? this is 1 issue that we could have unity on.

this is the bush legacy; fighting over torture.

Why wasn't waterboarding torture in 2002 and 2003 when the Democrat members of Congress were briefed on it while it was happening, but only became torture in time for the 2006 election?

it was torture long before that. this is not a partisan issue. anyone who says its ok for X party to torture but not Y party is freakin dumb.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 24, 2009 2:03 am

Call it torture, don't call it torture, it doesn't matter. The terrorists were not physically harmed and info that saved American lives was extracted from them. You do realize that saying "please Mr. Terrorist, tell us your plans", does not work, don't you?
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby lesterBfearsome » May 24, 2009 2:56 am

false confessions don't work either.

see what ambassador said about what wouldn't you do in a ticking time bomb situation.

having a good reputation is a good thing. its easier for americas enemies to surrender on the battle field if they know they won't be harmed or tortured (or enhancely interrogated). The troops are worse off if america tortures.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby Clubtender » May 24, 2009 11:21 am

lesterBfearsome wrote:false confessions don't work either.

Plots to take out Library Tower in Los Angeles and the Brooklyn Bridge in NYC were both foiled as a direct result of waterboarding. In the Brooklyn Bridge case, the waterboarded terrorist gave directions to the front door of Iyman Faris, the guy who was going to bring it down.

Image

Image

lesterBfearsome wrote:see what ambassador said about what wouldn't you do in a ticking time bomb situation.

having a good reputation is a good thing. its easier for americas enemies to surrender on the battle field if they know they won't be harmed or tortured (or enhancely interrogated). The troops are worse off if america tortures.

That is absolute bullshit. The terrorist scum already know that they will not be physically harmed. Remember, their definition of torture and yours are two totally different things. They use soldering irons and blow torches and they are not even doing it to gain info. They do it for sport.

No matter how good or bad that the US treats captured terrorist scum, when they capture US Soldiers, they torture them without mercy, behead them and boobietrap their mutilated corpses 100% of the time. This means that your argument about how our soldiers are treated if they are captured doesn't hold any water at all.
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Re: Republicans have alot of work to do....

Postby NightShade » May 24, 2009 2:53 pm

Clubtender wrote:
NightShade wrote:
Clubtender wrote:It would be more painful and dangerous to fire a water pick up your nose.


I guess that's why the Spanish during the Inquisition, the Imperial Japanese, the Gestapo, and the Khmer Rouge utilized it, and they weren't constrained in their methods.

Same name, totally different process. The process which you refer to was to tie a person to a "see-saw" type board and raise one end to totally submerge a person's head into a tub of water on the other end of the board. This is not the process that the US calls waterboarding.


During the Inquisition they used the toca, the Spanish version of waterboarding: '"The toca, also called tortura del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had the impression of drowning".

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid was subjected to waterboarding by the Japanese. At their trial for war crimes, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."

Here is a painting by a former inmate at S21: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Waterboard3-small.jpg

The tools are all on display: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water ... rRouge.jpg

I was at the site in Phnom Penh last January. Of the 17,000 that went through, only 12 survived by the time the Vietnamese may I say liberated the place.
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