Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 01, 2018 4:27 am

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I figured Turkey's latest mis-adventure should be added as a point of discussion. They are creating a firestorm in the Kurdish world, because their little incursion here is hypocritical in that they site the Syrian and Turkish borders as sacrosanct when it gives them an excuse to bomb Kurdish inhabited areas (feigning self-defense), but apparently the borders mean nothing when it is convenient for them. Convenient for them to be a blatant, murderous, naked aggressor that is, Turkey being true to its rotten evil core once again.

I thought this video was a good example of how things are going for them so far, you see a mix of what I am assuming are pro-Turkey militias, with some Turkish regulars perhaps mixed in. I don't get any of the dialog, but them doing selfies firing their guns looking all proud tells me they still have a few surprises ahead of them (and explains the slow progress, too, perhaps). I like the way the German built modern battle-tank rolls into the middle of the scene... to me this is a perfect example of life imitating art, in this case, the art of depicting a modern Army as being sucked into a quagmire to be ground to bits in some land war in [insert the blank]. But then again, Afrin's defenders at this point are probably a bunch of half-starved broken down old-timers that have been fighting their whole lives... It could be this one little push and the whole province falls back into the hands of the Ottoman Cabal.

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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Americalex » Feb 01, 2018 2:41 pm

I've been following this evolution and the kurds have been handed a pretty bad hand which they seem to constantly overplay.

The question i have is wether a clash will happen in Manjib between turkish and american soldiers. That should be grounds for expelling Turkey from Nato and letting it do it's strategic pivot into the hands of the SCO.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Feb 01, 2018 5:54 pm

This sends a shite message to small nato countries and to unofficial nato member states. Someone is banking on the media lie of propogation of ignorance of everything. It is clear the media publicity of the Kurdish ppl. from last yr. is no longer convenient for Western pwr. brokers. On the upside, it also sends a:"holy shit,we can only depend on ourselves" message to small struggling states. Are we seeing the complicated mess coalescing into something more difficult to sweep under the rug?

[duncecap]And to add, should I stay with Eastlink or go with a reseller for internet?[ /duncecap]
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Americalex » Feb 02, 2018 12:44 pm

The thing about resellers is that they will sell out your identity more easily if you get illegal download complaints.

Teksavvy has been fine for me though. They actually contact you and say "we are legally coerced into forwarding you this complaint which we got. We strongly advise you to ignore it and not reply to it in any way".

35$ for 400GB a month at 10mbps is nothing to stream black ray off of, but it does the job for me!

-------------------------------

The kurds have been abandoned time and time again ever since the british empire stepped in. They have a saying that their only friend is the mountains. None of the countries in that area have an interest in allowing them to form a country, and they are landlocked. They are the Poland of Islam so to speak. But Poland came out of all the trash suppression a strong and sovereign country once again, so who knows? If the kurds did carve out something by force, they would end up being the most powerful area in the region. But for that to happen they need to get serious about manufacturing their own implements of war... a la Iran.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Feb 02, 2018 9:00 pm

Being out of the economy of scale provinces, we don't have Teksavvy, but there are a few other choices.

This monstrous media ignorance machine was in ultra high gear during the Yugoslavian wars & ppl. in that era were lulled to sleep. You have to dig through the internet to find the gore. You can get it & then some without too much looking. Not much of this was easily available on the networks at the time. Not white enough I suppose.

I am unsure why there exists this media Potemkin village. Possibly was in effect in that era for similar reasons net neutrality is under attack today.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 06, 2018 7:07 pm

Just watched a video of a t60 (turkanoid) tank that arrogantly siloetted itself in broad daylight on top of a ridgeline get blown to bits with a javelin anti-tank missile. (I was going to post the link, but it had already been taken down by the time I finished watching the clip).

It was a Cavalryman's wet-dream scenario, lol.

Guess we know what the half-dozen or so convoys are bringing to the area unchallenged via territory that (on paper) belongs to the Syrian Regime... I am starting to get the feeling Assad's hold on his remaining territory is perhaps even more tenuous than is being represented by the media.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 07, 2018 12:55 pm

This one probably doesn't look like too much to the average viewer. What I think we are looking is an entire Turkish Army unit following their incompetent militia scouts into a complex ambush involving pre-plotted artillery strike points, with all their support vehicles mashed into the middle of the formation. It would almost be comical how incompetent the Turkish troops are proving themselves, if not for the tragedy of inhumanity they are visiting on their neighbors:

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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 07, 2018 1:05 pm

^^^^^^^^^
My guess is the "ambulances" at the end were collecting more bodies than injured. (Based on the observation point remaining uncompromised).
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 07, 2018 1:26 pm

Americalex wrote:...

The question i have is wether a clash will happen in Manjib between turkish and american soldiers. That should be grounds for expelling Turkey from Nato and letting it do it's strategic pivot into the hands of the SCO.


I feel that Arsogon's threats at Manjib are comments made to appease the hawks in his political base. (Based on him making the threats as a "when" they are done with their current invasion. The Turkish Army has more than enough troops to invade both provinces simaltaniously, thus why I call BULLSHIT on the threat.

Anyway, we would slaughter them if they tried. Their force-structure (including battle-drills and tactical-procedures) is set up for adding battalions to NATO mission, not for unilateral attacks. Their ground forces don't seem able to coordinate organically with other assets.

As far as a pivot, I don't really see one, except toward more isolationism. Iran and Russia seem to be more displeased with Turkey's move than the West at this point.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Feb 07, 2018 9:24 pm



Send in the Anzacs! They will sort johnnyturk out! Joking. I have not kept close tabs on that particular hunting party. So much to take in. As an aside it looks like they had to dig & fight in karst.Must have been brutal wrt. Shell splinters. Possibly similar terrain in Kurdistan.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 11, 2018 5:15 pm

My take on the current operation the Turks are pushing is Turkey kind of needs to do something at this point. Their military tempo has pretty much ground to a standstill, the downward spiral starting when they opted out of ww2 like as if they were the only Country experiencing disease, famine, and economic hardship in the 1930's.

Turkey, like many of the other former powers that sat on the sidelines of ww2, cannot regain its former glory in a post-nuclear world. Their legacy as a nation will forever be plagued by the shodow of the cowardess of their forebears.

At any rate, it gives them (the Turks) some sorely needed practical experience, gives the Kurds a chance to blast some expensive equipment (tanks, etc) and possibly settle some scores. Displaced civilians seem to be moving unhindered to Manjib, etc, which should only prove to increase the resolve to hold there.

Biggest losers are Iran/Russia/Assad-regime..... they have stronger claim to territory held by El Qaeda in Syria's traditional borders than with any territory physically being occupied by the Turks (who have a long history of only ceding territory under force.)
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Feb 11, 2018 10:00 pm

Well they pulled out the stops (sort of) for the Cypriot invasion of 1974, but that might as well have been back in the 1930s. The 70's is an increasingly distant era. :(

Interestingly they seem to vacuum up every lousy surplus weapon system on the open market. Canada sold a bunch of its surplus WWII coastal defence artillery to Turkey in past eras (read that somewhere). They were known to have used Rolls Royce armoured cars in Cyprus possibly as recently as the 1974 invasion.

I heard they have a large number of M48 tank destroyers in various states of repair.

I wonder if they were tire kicking with Canada's surplus Leopard 1 tanks?

result of wiki hunt:

Pereh missile carrier

Image
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 12, 2018 3:07 pm

The tank's dominance in ground warfare comes with pre-requisites:

-Air superiority is a must (the whole concept of air superiority, however, is currently being challenged with drones, improved surveillance apparatus, and shared air-space)
-counter-artillery measures are a must, including preventing availability of S to S missile systems to the enemy
-dynamic integration of military assets so tanks are used to full effect, not as a mobile armored ammo-dumps for light infantry.

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Barring these prerequisites, it is generally a waste of funds to commit heavy armor to ground combat. I would bet Turkey has already lost more than 1000 time the value (in terms of annual GDP) of Afrin Province in lost equipment. This little adventure will never come close to paying for itself in real terms, so hopefully Turkey (for its own sake) has some long term strategic objective other than pissing the whole world (including Syria/Iran/Russia) off at them.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Americalex » Feb 13, 2018 11:32 am

Windwalker your assessment is very accurate. I guess if anything it is more a failed pivot that was self-sabotaged by their insiatiable ambition to restore Ottoman influence resulting in an insolent and arrogant line of thinking that is effectively isolating them from almost everybody. Word is they are getting owned bigly in Afrin.

Heck they are using former ISIS fighters to assault? And threatening the US with "5 times vietnam". Clearly it is delusional to keep talking of a strategic partnership with that country. If NATO wasn't run by humanists Turkey would have been expelled by now. As I said, kick out Turkey, include Russia and bingo lol

It was nice to see Turkey being played for fools (they are so insufferably insolent in their delusional arrogance), first with Russia closing the air space over Afrin for a week, second by Assad letting reinforcements flow in through its territory, and the US firmly announcing that is it staying in Manbij no matter what, while also budgeting the contentious Kurdish Syrian force in spite of Ankara's objections.

Heck even Iran is said to be helping out the Syrian kurds, by supplying them with anti-tank equipment etc. At the end of the day the biggest loser is the Leopard-2 tank, whose credibility has been shattered as a dominant main battle tank. Like all german cars, it was largely overrated.

The threat Turkey seems poised to unleash on Europe is the 3 million refugees. If NATO wasn't pedosatanist dominated they would be bolstering Greece and other neighboring states to prevent that influx from happening. Turkey has big plans to become the domineering bulldog, I guess they are all in at this point and nothing will make them back down.

Granting full citizensihp to any turkic peoples in the former soviet republics for one, keep on trucking in Afrin no matter what like the ottoman bulldog way. They are stacking the failings but are too full of themselves to realize that people can actually see through their game pretty transparently.

Image

As a side note, those hundreds of russian mercenaries who got totally massacred by American air and artillery strikes, that's quite a shocking event! Apparently a lot of them were experienced participants in Ukraine as well. I would like to see that scene recreated within the scope of a realistic movie. The remaining mercenaries will think twice about assaulting oil assets within the american umbrella going forward for sure.

It's a clear as it gets warning to the Turks about what to expect if they try to force their way towards Manbij..
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 19, 2018 7:54 pm

I suppose if you wanted to assess it as succinctly as possible, you could compare Turkey's current tactical situation to that of Germany's in the first half of the 20th century...

Their war machine outgrew its food source (i.e. you end up with a row of 4000 tanks with no fuel in them, artillery with no mules to pull it, etc.)

Only difference is, the Nazis actually had a shot at it.... By comparison, Turkey is like a juicy fart into a public toilet as compared to the Nazi's blow-torch trying to cut the toilet in half.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 24, 2018 3:03 pm

Toilet and farting jokes aside (I guess even the humanistic drabble of lurkers who think of themselves as the Establishment's PC-Police won't even come to Johnny Turk's defense in the current climate, lol).

I did want to make some more sober observations of a comment by Americalex after doing some reading and watching the development of the engagement:

Heck they are using former ISIS fighters to assault? And threatening the US with "5 times vietnam". Clearly it is delusional to keep talking of a strategic partnership with that country. If NATO wasn't run by humanists Turkey would have been expelled by now. As I said, kick out Turkey, include Russia and bingo lol

It was nice to see Turkey being played for fools (they are so insufferably insolent in their delusional arrogance), first with Russia closing the air space over Afrin for a week, second by Assad letting reinforcements flow in through its territory, and the US firmly announcing that is it staying in Manbij no matter what, while also budgeting the contentious Kurdish Syrian force in spite of Ankara's objections
.

It would seem the air-cover that Russia provided the first week did more than just give the defenders time to set up, it also gave Assad time to mobilize his static positions along the western front of Allepo.

My guess is many of the formerly ISIS ranked fighters now helping the Turks (most of whom are ALSO being mobilized from the OTHER side of the Allepo front) may have links to groups of people of Turkoman decent who consider Idlib Province their home territory. They don't take kindly to the YPG basically sitting on the sidelines there as a buffer between Turkey and Assad for half a decade, while THEY did all the bleeding and dying, and the underlining moral justification is probably akin to a "let's-take-our-home-back" response emotionally.

What is happening is the age-old Hatfield-McCoy's style confrontation is boiling back to the top of the cauldron between the Turkish and Kurdish peoples, as it tends to do once or twice every century....

Meanwhile, Russia is banking on the US being more pragmatic and patient than usual, basically daring US to walk in and take back Allepo from them amidst the chaos, transferring the investment of their rebuilding operation into our books. (That "five times vietnam" crap Ankara feeds its less than 100 IQ-points crowd doesn't really work if the US is the target and Russia is footing the bill, lol).

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As far as expelling the only member from NATO that is currently transferring territory directly into the NATO umbrella (other than the US, of course)?

Why? Turkey's gains on the ground against Russia and Assad will still be in place when their bumbling wonna-be dictator implodes, and the normal rule of law is re-established. The most logical NATO member state to expel currently is Canada, actually. Turkey is pretty much a "break-even member of the alliance, Canada is a drunken bum dressed in children's clothing hiding behind Lady Liberty's skirts, occasionally throwing a handful of troops into the pot to save face.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Feb 24, 2018 3:25 pm

Americalex wrote:As a side note, those hundreds of russian mercenaries who got totally massacred by American air and artillery strikes, that's quite a shocking event! Apparently a lot of them were experienced participants in Ukraine as well. I would like to see that scene recreated within the scope of a realistic movie. The remaining mercenaries will think twice about assaulting oil assets within the american umbrella going forward for sure
.

Probably a case of strategic differences. The Kurdish dominated (and US backed) elements of the SDF want the river as both a strategic and political boundary with Assad, but the river is danger-close to a strategic airfield vital to Assad's ability to project power in the sector.

Assad and the Russians would be throwing money away repairing and maintaining the base without controlling the narrow strip between the river and the highway in SDF territory adjacent to their eastern flank.

While ISIS has been routed into hiding in the desert and in basements in the region, the replacing and reparing of the oil-industry apparatus DEFINITELY plays in, too, for sure.... economies don't stop moving forward just because the local security situation is fluid, people will still eat, drink, breath, fuck, and be a general nuisance to competing creatures.
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Feb 24, 2018 10:40 pm

As far as expelling the only member from NATO that is currently transferring territory directly into the NATO umbrella (other than the US, of course)?




The Libs undoubtedly had their beancounters look into that in secret of course. It would amount to Finlandization. The trouble with Finlandization is that it requires a serious approach to National Defence. There would be no money to piss away on useless weapons systems like ADATS. Bombardier would not be able to reinvent itself into something useful.

Hmh! Makes you wonder if it would get the creative juices flowing in the regional Defence Research Establishments. I doubt it as that sort of culture is not really innovative.

We all know the waffle descendants in the Lib party will have no part of getting serious about National Defence. 

It is easier to pump propaganda billions into CBC :lol: telling us how special we are! 
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Fat Tony » Mar 03, 2018 10:50 am

Mt. Bursaya fell to the Turks around Jan.28, due to overwhelming artillery & aerial bombardment. The Turks went in with support of FSA & fellow travellers. Recently heard Turk special forces were brought in. Assad has pronounced he is collaborating with the Kurdish Government to drive out the invasion forces.

The special forces. Are they there to torture & interrogate? I guess the collaboration with the Kurdish state is convenient for Assad?
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Re: Turkish Ground Troops Invade Syria.

Postby Windwalker » Mar 03, 2018 5:01 pm

Fat Tony wrote:Mt. Bursaya fell to the Turks around Jan.28, due to overwhelming artillery & aerial bombardment. The Turks went in with support of FSA & fellow travellers. Recently heard Turk special forces were brought in. Assad has pronounced he is collaborating with the Kurdish Government to drive out the invasion forces.

The special forces. Are they there to torture & interrogate? I guess the collaboration with the Kurdish state is convenient for Assad?


Yes, Turkey is moving in their more quality troops now, and also seems to be experience more dominance in the skies.

Image

Turkey seems to be using a technique where instead of hitting strong-points directly, you take the nearby high-ground on both sides, and threaten to envelope them, but leaving a wide enough avenue for retreat... That way the enemy has the choice of accepting a siege, a blooding battle, or pulling back.... Turkey right now is filling in the "easy" terrain that they successfully instigated a retreat in, I think. (and there also seems to be a back-stab situation going on against the Assad-supporting troops that entered the mix about a week ago, foolishly thinking they could expand on their gains in Aleppo (the Turkish air force is at this moment killing them by the hundreds.)
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