Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Dec 23, 2016 5:23 pm

Gumilev attempted to explain the waves of nomadic migration that rocked the great steppe of Eurasia for centuries by geographical factors such as annual vacillations in solar radiation, which determine the area of grasslands that could be used for grazing livestock. According to this idea, when the steppe areas shrank drastically, the nomads of Central Asia began moving to the fertile pastures of Europe or China.

To describe the genesis and evolution ofethnic groups, Gumilyov introduced the concept of "passionarity", meaning the level of activity to expand typical for an ethnic group, and especially for their leaders, at the given moment of time. Gumilev argued that every ethnic group passes through the same stages of birth, development, climax, inertia, and memorial. It is during the "acmatic" phases, when the national passionarity reaches its maximum heat, that the great conquests are made. He described the current state of Europe as deep inertia, or "introduction to obscuration", to use his own words. The passionarity of the Arabic world, on the other hand, is still high, according to him.

Drawing inspiration from the works ofKonstantin Leontyev and Nikolay Danilevsky, Gumilyov regarded Russians as a "super-ethnos" which is kindred to Turkic-Mongol peoples of the Eurasian steppe. Those periods when Russia has been said to conflict with the steppe peoples, Gumilev reinterpreted as the periods of consolidation of Russian power with that of steppe in order to oppose destructive influences from Catholic Europe, that posed a potential threat to integrity of the Russian ethnic group.

In accordance with his pan-Asiatic theories, he supported the national movements ofTatars, Kazakhs, and other Turkic peoples, in addition to those of the Mongolians and other East Asians. Unsurprisingly, Gumilev's teachings have enjoyed immense popularity in Central Asian countries. In Kazan, for example, a monument to him was opened in August 2005.



Wwondering if his views were influenced by his camp experience?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Gumilyov
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Americalex » Dec 25, 2016 9:56 pm

It's oh so expected that the "greatest humanist of the 20th century" would prognosticate the death of the West and victory of Islam, what's laughable is the fact that in his delusion, he made an effort to actively develop a model that would attempt to make reality conform with his wishful thinking lol The only reason the West has been weakening is because of the fact that humanists through hijacking/coopting/usurpring basically took shit over and have been actively trying their best to make such an outcome happen on purpose.
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 25, 2016 10:57 pm

I sort of skimmed over the wikipedia article on this guy, and also followed the link and skimmed the article on "ethnogenesis".

The vibe I was getting was it is a theory with some sound hypothosii, but that was corrupted by being researched within the confines of the Soviet Empire (i.e. obviously heavily influenced by propoganda and confirmation-bias). The term Soviet Science, afterall, IS an oxymoron.

Its easy to say "cultural/ethnic groups can be traced back to their origin within the confines of a specific definition of "origin", and common traits can be discerned by comparing such groups to each other over time.".......
And quite another to speculate on which cultures are "superior" based on geographic positioning, chronological age, etc. Just sounds like more Soviet Era garbage justifying ethnic clensing and blatant land-grabs to me, as long as your theory didn't interfere with the Soviet agenda it was considered valid science (and vice-versa).

It would be interesting to comparatively cross-section some of these obsolete social-sciences derived theries with some of the "harder" sciences of today like genetics. Perhaps there IS a baby hiding somewhere in the pool of rancid bathwater?
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Dec 25, 2016 11:51 pm

I would tend to agree. It seems that he tailored his theories to jive with official Soviet policy. I did not really know of him, but someone who was made an example of just for who his mom& dad were, would understandably be scarred for life. Note that his demise roughly coincided with the collapse of the Soviet system.
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Dec 30, 2016 11:49 am

The interest to this person's research is the link he attempts to forge between the "Russian" identity and turkic peoples. If you look at this from the standpoint of a white supremacist, "Russia" (never really fully understood or researched by these W.S. people,) The general subject is a clearing house for every crackpot W.S. theory you can imagine. Interesting phenomenon. I have heard viewpoints expressed (not sure if they are academic sources or otherwise), that opine that the caucasian "Russian identity" is associated with the pinnacle of Swedish imperial power.

Oh by the way, all the best for the New Year, and I hope you all had a joyous Christmas. :)
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 30, 2016 4:31 pm

I have had the pleasure of spending about 2 weeks total at the airbase in Kyrgistan while coming-and-going from Afghanistan. I was struck by the very distinctive beauty of many of the local-nationals working at the base. You could almost mistake them Chinese or Mongolian at a glance, but a more lingering look revealed obvious Russianesque facial features, round blue eyes, and cranial hair more similar to a brunette caucasion than the distinctive dark, silky hair of most asian people.

Turkey, Korea, most of the "Stan" countires, and even Japan mostly speak dialects from the same base language, afterall. The predominant theory is most of the movement of the tribal-base for this group moved from west to east, not the other way around.

Western Europe likes to imagine there was a lot more stagnation and in-breading of our more tribal ancestors than is likely the reality. We like to pretend like what language and clothing our Grandparents prefered somehow over-rides our insticts to preserve a healthy, diverse gene-pool. The reality is, with only a few exceptions, every Caucasian person alive today is related to every Caucasian person who was alive in the year 1000. French, German, Scott, Norwegian, etc. is more closely related to discusions on favorite-colors and right-vs-left handedness than it is with any true genetic based science.

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The thinking that one cultural-ethnic group has some sort of genetic advantage over their subject population is an oxymoron. The supposed "inferior" peasants or commoners just march right along through the generations, becoming stronger and more diverse, while the narrow-minded view of the "ruling class" or "master race" literally breeds itself into retardation. Most of the Greek City-States, and even the Roman Empire itself selectively bred themselves out of power. A more recent example is the British Empire losing control of North America, because they were too proud to admit their selective breeding practices had produced a retarded embocile (George III) with a man's body and the inbred mind of a 2 year old mutant.
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Americalex » Dec 30, 2016 8:28 pm

That's actually a pretty compelling case against monarchy in general and more specifically the inherited positions and titles that accompany its administrative infrastructure. The guild system however, seemed to keep the best of both by providing tutelage/apprenticeship based on merit, so it harnessed the natural benefits of upbringing as preparation for given responsibilities, but without the decrepitude inducing phenomenon of powerful people agglomerating in their copulation to maintain or increase their sway.

Many girls from Kazakstan can be easily mistaken for Korean, due to the shared Mongolian heritage. I had the distinct pleasure of digging down the rather arcane specialized history about ancient Korea and their closer parentage to the mongols than other Asian nations is markedly due to the fact that they did not resist the Empire, so they in fact enjoyed amicable relations and many mongols developed a fondness for Korea leading them to travel there often and intermingle/intermarry, leading to today's very interesting nation in North Asia.
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 31, 2016 12:47 am

The English have come up with a pretty good work-around. The latest batch of Royal children have a "commoner" as a Mother, someone he met in college or something, I think?

Rather then revoke the current system, they simply worked backward until they found some ancestor of hers with noble blood (some minor land- holder from the 16th or 17th Century, and postumously advanced him to apoint where it became legal to declare her the Dutchess of something-or-another making her a viable bride without revoking the existing system.

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Its really not a "work-around" though, considering the theories the original system of heretatary title were based on superstition and tribal tradition more than actual genetics. With e exception of a few villages on the border of Spain/France, and some small pockets in Albania, every Caucacian alive has a Noble ancestor. From that perspective, allowing William and Harry select their mate is actually more true to the Spirit of the law than the more traditional, rigid interpretation.

With the current state of laws regarding human-cloning in the UK, they could probably take things even a step further and simply graft genes from the next female in line to the ovum of whoever is to mother the next heir, but this is unnecessary. Since females are now allowed to be considered in the line (and the British kept accurate birth records) the number of eligible mates available has expanded exponentially (to the point where nearly everyone can be found to be eligable under the existing rules).
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 31, 2016 1:10 am

I think they should collect DNA from every female alive in Britannia, free of charge, and combine them all into single ovum, and repeat until they have a whole batch of the little buggers, then create a batch of clones that are literally the children of the entire population.
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Mar 01, 2017 9:33 pm

Victor Mair, a specialist in the ancient corpses and co-author of “Mummies of the Tarim Basin”, said:"Modern DNA and ancient DNA show that Uighurs, Kazaks, Krygyzs, the peoples of Central Asia are all mixed Caucasian and East Asian.


http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/mummies.htm


These mummies started attracting attention around the late 1980s. Are there any more "Loulan missus" out there? If so sign me up!
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Mar 13, 2017 12:30 am

To derail my own topic, there appears to be one of these bogus W.S. online debates going on with regards to the racial origins of Berbers.

There may be a kernel of truth in there somewhere. More importantly, do Berbers align themselves with Western W.S. thought?
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Americalex » Mar 14, 2017 12:24 pm

I wouldn't know anything about the WS crowd's meanderings but I've studied the Amazighs as a haplogroup and they are amongst the oldest, sharing linguistic and genetic overlap with the Iberians of Spain and England.

They are also the farthest back I could reach for the use of the word Amen, which the Egyptians apparently took from them when it comes to the cult of Amun.

At some point in time it appears that the Amazighs and iberian people of the British Isles and Spain were a single nation, probably before the fracture that occured with the great flood.

I posit that they were originally from the Atlantean culture, all snipets of information seem to point in this direction! WS idiots should not forget that the berbers became fanatically islamists once brutally subdued,

It makes sense that they would have captured and mingled with European slaves from Christendom that would have influenced their gene pools and led to some among them looking clearly westerner in outlook.

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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Fat Tony » Mar 14, 2017 4:13 pm

I am not sure the Berbers are to a man fanatically islamist. It is a racial type which exists in many nations. We even have a diaspora living in Canada - or Toronto, excuse me. I wonder if the Canadian Diaspora came from Algeria?
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Re: Lev Gumilyov: theories of ethnogenesis?

Postby Americalex » Mar 15, 2017 9:50 am

Historically they were, but you are correct that the post ww1 secularisation of the former Ottoman controlled regions led them to diversified outlooks about things. I've even had an amazigh girlfriend ahah But mostly today they are a mixture of arab and berber, and my understanding is that most of them actually hail from Morocco rather than Algeria. What is most interesting is the intensity of their determination to fight Islam, led by a girl whose name I forget but it should all be made into a movie!
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