"The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Nov 07, 2012 10:57 am

dans wrote:The way I see it, it's a matter of time preference. Voters have the shortest time preference, only considering election to election, or maybe even just the next year or next month. (Inflation decreases time preference, though, so perhaps voter's low time preference is caused by inflation. We need a control group to determine that.) Politicians care only about their term and possibly the next after that. What I think could do some good is a constitutional monarch with strict, enumerated powers, probably just veto powers (and maybe foreign policy). Liechtenstein has a similar system. The prince (who happens to be quite popular, he's got an approval rating most politicians would kill for) can veto the Landtag and cause the issue to go to popular referendum. Switzerland has something similar, minus the monarchy. Of course, it helps that Liechtenstein is so tiny.

I like your stance. Looks to me like democracy is going to be the bane of all republics including the USA, so we might as well start designing a limited government alternative for the digital age from scratch.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 05, 2013 1:32 am

$14M contract awarded for U.S. Border Patrol station in DetroitBy Associated Press | January 4, 2013 at 7:00 am

Detroit — U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has awarded a $14 million contract for the design and construction of a new U.S. Border Patrol station in Detroit.

The Corps' Detroit District announced Thursday that Turner Construction Co. will handle the project. Work is scheduled to be completed in spring 2015.

The Corps says the 45,000-square-foot facility will be designed to accommodate about 100 agents, a kennel, a fitness area, holding facilities, processing areas and storage space. It also will include a helipad, communications tower and security fencing.

The Detroit station is responsible for 70 miles of border with Canada, stretching along the Detroit River and across Lake St. Clair. The Corps says the current facility used by U.S. Customs and Border Protection's Border Patrol agents is outdated and undersized.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2013 ... z2H4mAf1FP


Huh. More millions going to "defend" the border. It's nice to see the investment in Detroit, but not so nice to see the border tightened. Sorry, but there's a line in the water: you have to stay on your side, and we'll stay on ours. :?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jan 06, 2013 1:02 pm

jonathan.jam wrote:Huh. More millions going to "defend" the border. It's nice to see the investment in Detroit, but not so nice to see the border tightened. Sorry, but there's a line in the water: you have to stay on your side, and we'll stay on ours. :?

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Sadly I don't expect this trend to change anytime soon, Washington seems interested in spending America down the shit hole, by being as wasteful as socialistically possibly, and this is just one of the ways they found to blow shit wads of cash they don't have, as part of their relentless quest to grow the national debt to make the United States eventually implode lol
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Well, they actually do need a new border station there since there is a border. The current station is basically a shack (hyperbole). My point was that it wouldn't be needed if we didn't have the border/had open borders.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jan 06, 2013 1:33 pm

jonathan.jam wrote:Well, they actually do need a new border station there since there is a border. The current station is basically a shack (hyperbole). My point was that it wouldn't be needed if we didn't have the border/had open borders.

Okay I see, for my part I was simply referring to the excessive Homeland Security spending on the border with Canada, not the border itself. There are many American communities near the Canadian border who have commented as you have: saying that although they welcome the money and investment in their areas, they think it is wasteful and would be better spent in more useful ways.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 06, 2013 2:13 pm

Exactly. The biggest boost to development in the area would be to have the border lifted. Then, Detroit could take its rightful place in the Quebec-Windsor Corridor (needs a better name! haha). Trains, buses, cars, trucks...all crossing the border again. No more long lines, no more delays. I wish it were so...
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Milton » Jan 06, 2013 7:51 pm

My feeling is that the U.S./Canadian border is probably the most useless border in the World. The next time I cross it, I would like to see only a "Welcome to Canada" sign. Frankly, I would like to see the U.S. unilaterally make all Canadians U.S. citizens. That would certainly shake things up!---Milton
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby MrSG1 » Jan 07, 2013 2:40 pm

You mean a "Welcome to Ontairo" sign, which you see after customs, there is actually no reference to Canada in the border crossings i've seen other than at the border stations. Same goes for the ones I've seen into the US, usually a Welcome to "state name" sign appears.

The feds in Canada have spent a lot of money on border upgrades here, Queenston-Lewiston bridge, and Peace Bridge all have new Canadian Customs plazas. But if we have to finger point, from my experience, and what I've done research on, it seems that Canadian border guards are the worst. The Canada-US border has long been touted as the longest undefended border in the world, probably true. However, I would argue on that same token it's the most secure border in the world, and probably one of the most difficult to cross. Border guards on either side seem to have endless power since they answer to no one. They can demand to see your personal devices, like laptops, iPhones, and if you refuse, than they will seize them.

The "everyone is suspicious" attitude makes it feel like to most, that just merely crossing the border seems like a crime in itself.

Also, there's all these other rules, which customs people bust people on, and refer to that as smuggling. We've all heard the Kinder Eggs story, but here are some anomalies for instance. THe US says you can't bring any meat or produce into the US. HOWEVER, FROM THE US, you can bring pretty much any kind of food into Canada. Doesn't make sense.

To create something more like a customs union, where Canada and the US have identical rules on what can be brought from outside Canada and the US, than that's the first thing that must be done. For us to be on the same page, petty nonsense, like the Kinder Eggs law that dates back from the 1930s, would have to be opened up, or they would have to be banned by Canadian federal law as well.

Since everyone is so pushy on this side of the border, if we were to try to make uniform rules, people would be afraid that we are "Americanizing" too much. Yet these same people don't mind getting the awesome prices in shopping in the US, they line up at the border and go to the US to buy stuff.

Well that's my rant for today, I'll speak more about this if someone has any questions, since I've done a lot of research on the US/Canada border.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Milton » Jan 07, 2013 8:35 pm

I also find going back and forth across the border to be a pain in the ass sometimes, and it seems as if it depends on whether the guards are in a bad mood, and just feel like screwing with you. It would be so much better if the border were just like a State or Provincial border. Those border guards seem to be trying to remind us that the U.S. and Canada are separate countries, as if we didn't know already. I guess they think our skulls are full of rocks. One time while crossing from B.C. into Washington in a car with some friends, including one American and two Canadians, they stopped us, and made us get out of the car, while a police dog ransacked the car and they even opened a jar of mayonnaise, and opened up a couple of packages of lunch meat, apparently looking for drugs. How asinine can you get? It doesn't generally come to this kind of rudeness now that I'm not a teenager any more. I'm 63 now, so I suppose they have some respect for my age. But they still give me unnecessary crap about identification, where am I going, what am I going there for, insurance, etc. I'd really like to not even have the border guards, honestly. Personally, I'm not one of the people trying to get Canada to break up, and join the U.S. I'm listed on this forum as an "Ideal Annexation Advocate", whatever the Hell that is, but actually I support the U.S. and Canada merging if, and ONLY if, it is approved by the voters on BOTH sides of the border. In the meantime, I don't see why the border needs to be guarded any more than the border between Arizona and New Mexico. Yeah, we know the border is there, just like we know the border is there between Arizona and New Mexico. As I said, all we really need is "Welcome to Canada", and "Welcome to the United States" signs. Neither of us is a security threat to the other. Why have our border guards act like jackasses? I should add though, that most of the time the guards on both sides are courteous.---Milton
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 07, 2013 9:22 pm

You two are spot on. Really, the border infringes on our legal rights. Instead of being innocent until proven guilty, the border protection assumes that we're guilty until proven innocent. It's quite sad. An open border would do wonders for trade, tourism and commerce. It would have an impact on the border regions mostly, but I think that it would be greatly beneficial for the whole of both countries as well.

I'm not a big fan of lobbying, but I really do think Michigan and other border states should lobby for an open border. Whether we had a comprehensive customs union or shared immigration policies in place first shouldn't be that big of a deal. I think this could happen tomorrow with, for the most part, no major ill-effects.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jul 21, 2013 2:03 pm

Especially considering the negative impacts for Detroit's auto industry which was mostly relocated to Ontario as a result of Canada's tax payers footing the universal healthcare bills of auto industry workers up here, giving them a competitive advantage over the Michigan locations.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby CTMountaineer » Jun 07, 2014 3:12 am

I am going to posit an idea that has crossed my mind. I am not saying this is true with certainty, or anything like that, but I used to believe the tightened border restrictions were implemented because US officials were not convinced Canada would screen middle eastern potential terrorists sufficiently to protect us from attack here. I am starting to believe that is not the case.

When we have a nominally "liberal" government in place here, the emphasis is generally on disturbing the status quo. Historically, that has meant the predominantly Caucasian middle class. These guys see increased interaction from Canada as bolstering and augmenting our middle class, and that runs counter to their ambition of keeping various segments of our population in a perpetual state of distrust of one another, rather than having an attitude of unity. It isn't so much that they are interested in increasing the status of minorities. They give lip service to that, but in reality their entitlement policies build a state of permanent dependency which brings about exactly the opposite result. That isn't the real goal at all though. The real goal is to create division and skepticism, thus diverting attention from their real goals of increasing the wealth, power, and position of the wealthiest among us.

Our wealthiest people (and they are disproportionately members of certain groups, some of whom feel especially vulnerable due to their treatment in Europe), all agree on one thing, whether they are nominally democrat or republican. They intend to keep and if possible increase their holdings. The only thing they disagree about are how they are going to dispose of the assets of the diminishing and embattled, largely white middle class. In the final analysis, it really does not matter them personally because in the first place it isn't their money (which is always protected from taxation with an amazing array of "non profit" schemes where they can avoid paying taxes for building an outhouse in Tel Aviv or anyplace else and hiring a relative to watch them do it ... with nearly no benefit to the American people) while the middle class bears most of the cost of everything that happens. To perpetuate this scenario, while they retreat to their gated communities and send their children to exclusive private schools protecting themselves from the consequences of the insanity they inflict on the rest of us, they need to deflect attention from themselves to make themselves feel less vulnerable.

How is this accomplished? It couldn't be accomplished if we had a truly happy and united citizenry, so they work to insure a permanent constituency of unhappy people who are convinced that they are victims, with endless policies promoting "diversity" and "affirmative action". Never mind that those who worked so hard to accomplish equality for everyone wanted nothing more than unity and equality of opportunity ... a disappearance of racial and ethnic identity, those who feel threatened by their obvious affluence and accumulation of assets while everyone else is losing out relatively speaking, seek to maintain the "div" in divisiveness and diversity, always pointing to the perpetrator, real or imagined, of the Caucasian, and especially the Caucasian male if possible. As long as they can keep folks arguing among themselves and pointing fingers at each other, those people won't have time to look at the real issues that are dominating their lives in virtually every manner from economics to international relations, and with their control over government and media they constantly supplement these efforts with policies and propaganda.

I recently heard a talk by a member of the Navajo indian tribe that reinforces this belief. He told the audience that American Indians culturally do NOT focus on their differences from everyone else. Their cultural tendency is to focus on similarities and commonalities, but the hate mongers and race baiters have convinced many of the younger generation of Indians that they should feel like victims, causing internal unrest and problems within the tribes themselves even though for the most part American Indians (we have a different relationship with them here for the most part than they have in Canada) are now basically mainstream, and in many cases quite affluent.

How does that affect our relations with our northern neighbor? Well, historically you folks have sent about 50,000 more people here every year to live and work than the other way around. For the most part, when you folks come here you join our mostly Caucasian group increasing the perceived threat to those at the top of the economic chain. Not directly mind you, but indirectly because you make it more difficult for them to create "equality" in size of groups they wish to keep in perpetual discontent with each other. Thus we have increased border scrutiny in the north, but policies that essentially allow for anybody who can sneak across our southern border to stay here unmolested with a catch and release policy that even seeks to allow them to bring in their relations and extended families, and immigration policies that promote infusions of people from Asia, the middle east, and Africa while reducing it from Europe.

My point is, when you encounter that delay at the border crossing when you used to be able to cross by showing your drivers license, there might well be more to it than meets the eye. It pains me to say that, and I really hope I am not correct in this theory, but it does seem increasingly plausible the way I see things unfolding.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 08, 2014 3:22 am

CTMountaineer wrote:These guys see increased interaction from Canada as bolstering and augmenting our middle class, and that runs counter to their ambition of keeping various segments of our population in a perpetual state of distrust of one another, rather than having an attitude of unity. It isn't so much that they are interested in increasing the status of minorities. They give lip service to that, but in reality their entitlement policies build a state of permanent dependency which brings about exactly the opposite result. That isn't the real goal at all though. The real goal is to create division and skepticism, thus diverting attention from their real goals of increasing the wealth, power, and position of the wealthiest among us.


You should take a second look at the Communist Manifesto. Marx outline class struggle in post-industrial societies pretty well (with the hopes that the working class would use it to empower themselves against the ruling class). What you are suggesting is that it is actually the 'ruling class' that have benefited from the practical application of Communist theories by hybridizing it with Capitalism?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby spencenator » Sep 16, 2014 12:41 am

It's called Fascism CTMountaineer. Hitler, the most infamous Fascist used a totalitarian government to control, but allow to exist and prosper the main industries in Germany. Daimler-Benz, Messerschmidt, Porsche, and Fokker were key to the Nazi war machine. Hugo Boss made the uniforms, including the SS. Obama has many major corporations in his back pocket. Wall Street goes along to get along. The Marxist Democrats are killing small business on every level of government with regulation and confiscatory taxation. Leftist are a scourge to freedom and the free market.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Dec 31, 2014 12:11 pm

I think the impossible delays in simply getting a clear answer have made it abundantly clear that alternative projects that don't involve the politically touchy feely U.S. have to be considered.

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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jan 02, 2015 2:37 pm

Americalex wrote:I think the impossible delays in simply getting a clear answer have made it abundantly clear that alternative projects that don't involve the politically touchy feely U.S. have to be considered.

Image

I get so sick of seeing Bernie Sanders quotes. Like all his fellow self-proclaimed Socialists, he has a long list of criticisms and a very short (if not completely nonexistent) list of reasonable solutions to these problems.

I suppose trucks, trains, and boats are a better (and safer) solution for the economy, and for the environment, than a pipeline on a continent that already has over a million miles of pipeline? :roll:

At least it will keep the Labor Unions involved with shipping oil around the more expensive way happy.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jan 02, 2015 2:52 pm

It sure is the hypocrite reality of the stance taken by socialists on these matters. Aside from their de facto defending of the petty interests of inefficient means of economic activity (unions, dangerous shipping of oil by train, defending/promoting saudi interests including to finance their supremacism jihad fagness, etc.), these socialists when you derive their positions are all about pro-actively undermining the interests of the Western world, they are literally like a fifth column within our societies. But hey, Canada can live without Keystone and so can the US. The fall of oil prices took care of that on its own probably, the deal falling through is detrimental to Alberta and Texas for the most part.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby GTADriver » Mar 22, 2015 1:18 pm

I don't understand why Harper wants to pump oil OUT of Canada. I want Harper to build refineries INSIDE of Canada. Refine our own oil, for our own people. It's idiotic to send our oil to other nations and then buy it back refined. We do the same thing with our other resources here. This is really stupid. We have all of these natural resources we're sending out, getting turned into goods and then buying it back marked up! WTF? Why do Canadians do this? I don't want a pipeline. Where is the discussion in parliament about our own oil refineries? I'm willing to pay taxes to build our own oil refineries. Build them in Alberta or Ontario or Quebec. I don't care. Just don't refine oil somewhere else so they can sell it back to us at a mark-up.

I've been in a tourist in the US directly from Europe before I moved to Canada. The line was a little slow, but otherwise uneventful. I've since learned first hand that they treat Canadian immigrants badly. I don't go where I'm not welcome. There are other places happy to see me and my money.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Mar 22, 2015 1:49 pm

It's the spare capacity already available in Texas which makes it a very competitive offering. Plus Alberta and Texas share a cultural affinity as mid-western time zoned cowboys which facilitates their economic dealings and commerce.

We have some spare capacity out here in Quebec and New-Brunswick, however the pipeline would be longer and costlier, and we don't share that brotherly cultural aspect as Alberta and Texas do, basically.

As for building straight out new refineries, that's really easy to say "I'd pay for it"... but mathematically it's not competitive at all (misallocation of limited resources = bad government). Hence why nobody is really looking at that, it's way too costly.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Mar 22, 2015 1:59 pm

GTADriver wrote:I don't understand why Harper wants to pump oil OUT of Canada. I want Harper to build refineries INSIDE of Canada. Refine our own oil, for our own people. It's idiotic to send our oil to other nations and then buy it back refined. We do the same thing with our other resources here. This is really stupid. We have all of these natural resources we're sending out, getting turned into goods and then buying it back marked up! WTF? Why do Canadians do this? I don't want a pipeline. Where is the discussion in parliament about our own oil refineries? I'm willing to pay taxes to build our own oil refineries. Build them in Alberta or Ontario or Quebec. I don't care. Just don't refine oil somewhere else so they can sell it back to us at a mark-up.


Ignoring that oil is traded as a global commodity, and that the oil-industry is an (mostly American based) oligopoly, the economics of putting in a new refinery are incredible, and unneeded. A new refinery has a price-tag of about $10 billion dollars and takes several years to built. North America as a whole already idles a significant portion of its refining capability on a regular basis, which would explain why no new refineries have been built in over 30 years. (Although both North and South Dakota have been talking about putting one in since 2008. Not sure if this has gone forward or not.)

Are you suggesting that Harper commandeer privately owned property and equipment, violate multiple legally binding agreements with both private entities and with other Countries, and socialize an entire industry on which the rest of Canada's economic activity existentially relies? Beside the fact Canada would have to go full-Communist for this to happen, the current solution (expanding our pipeline network) isn't just more viable for both nations economically, it is in line with the geographically imposed challenges of our continent. We like to try and force things to run east-to-west here on both sides of the border for political reasons, but in reality, the more efficient routes often run north-to-south.
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