"The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 15, 2012 6:56 pm

Well, it looks like our relationship is on the up-turn; the United States still loves Canada (at least a little bit)!

For those who haven't been following the news on the New International Trade Crossing (NITC), here is your resident-Michigander filling you in: Last fall, a committee in the Michigan Senate voted down receiving the $550 million that the Canadian government was offering us to pay for our portion of the crossing. This was likely due to Matty Moroun's (the owner of the Ambassador Bridge) money flowing to the Senate. Meanwhile, while Michiganders have had to watch countless attack-ads produced by Matty Moroun, Governor Snyder by-passed the Michigan Legislature (completely legal) by writing up a interlocal agreement between Michigan and Canada. The agreement was announced and signed today (it will become law once the Hillary Clinton signs it).

The great news for Michigan is that we will not have to pay a cent upfront; the Canadian government will be giving Michigan $550 million that will be paid back through bridge tolls. We'll also be able to use that money to get matching federal highway grants up to $2 billion. The Canadian government is going to foot the entire bill (minus customs plaza) for now, but at least the bridge will be built.

This may seem irrelevant now, but I think this project will help our cause a lot by furthering the inter-connectivity of the region. The only sad part about the announcement is that the American and Canadian customs plazas will cost $413.6 million and $387.6 million respectively. Imagine how much nicer things would be if there was no border and no customs service... :?

http://buildthedricnow.com/
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 15, 2012 7:12 pm

i heard the news today as well. This is a Canadian project, which must be great news for job creation in Ontario. There will be a toll on Michiganers using the bridge coming into canada to make up their end of costs.

This news got me searching online for the best bridges in canada. And i gotta say, Canada is pretty damned deficient in the bridge department. I hope this new bridge looks good.
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 15, 2012 9:29 pm

A study done by the Center for Automotive Research is saying that it will provide 12,000 jobs per year during construction and then more than 8,000 permanent jobs in Southeast Michigan once it's built. I'm sure that the numbers probably hold true for Windsor-Essex also. Since the north-bound and south-bound tollbooths will be on the Canadian side, that's quite a few jobs right there (providing that they don't do fully-electronic tolls).

You're right about the bridges, especially the international ones. The Ambassador Bridge is really the only one that makes a nice iconic statement, but it is in need of refurbishment. It will be interesting to see the final design because it will be a hard task to pick a design that matches the surroundings well. I think that the plan is to go for a cable-stayed bridge, but it may stick-out too much in the area that it is in if it isn't designed well.

Hopefully this will cause even more investment in the area. For a metroplex of its size, Detroit-Windsor are really lacking on trans-river infrastructure. Most of this is likely due to it being a border-crossing though, so it's about time we do away with that thing! :wink:
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 16, 2012 5:58 pm

kind of off topic, but are people from Michigan really called "Michiganders"????

that just doesn't sound right...
User avatar
NWDave83
Supporter
 
Posts: 2336
Joined: Jun 01, 2010 1:52 am
Location: Washington

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 16, 2012 8:44 pm

sounds like a duck.
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 16, 2012 10:05 pm

Well, Michigan has no official demonym. Michigander and Michiganian are the most frequently used, and most people in Michigan prefer Michigander instead. It actually started out as a negative name applied to Lewis Cass, the great campaigner of popular sovereignty, by Abraham Lincoln. As Bearsy guesed, it was just a combination of Michigan and gander (geese). Michiganian has older usage though. I personally prefer to use Michigander as the noun and Michiganian as the adjective. :wink:
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 16, 2012 10:06 pm

:lol: exactly.
User avatar
NWDave83
Supporter
 
Posts: 2336
Joined: Jun 01, 2010 1:52 am
Location: Washington

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 16, 2012 10:07 pm

Yes, a little funny, but we Michiganders like it; it is something that makes us unique (better than just adding an -er or an -ian)!! 8-)
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 17, 2012 12:22 am

Cool, learn somethin new every day!
User avatar
NWDave83
Supporter
 
Posts: 2336
Joined: Jun 01, 2010 1:52 am
Location: Washington

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 17, 2012 3:06 am

its odd because the 'd' is there when there is no reason for it. it would belong if the state was called Michigland but it isn't!

honestly most native american derived names sound better with the french demonym style. eg: Michiganois.
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 18, 2012 3:29 am

David Frum wrote:Image
It’s just a toll booth on a bridge — but it symbolizes the challenges to Canadians of living next-door to an increasingly dysfunctional American political system.

The Ambassador Bridge over the Detroit River is the busiest Canada-U.S. border crossing. It’s been improved and modernized over the years, but shippers fear that the bridge’s capacity will soon be overwhelmed. Proposals to add a second span have gone nowhere. And anyway, a second span would be a poor solution: The bridge, built in 1929, is in the wrong place. It disgorges into Windsor city streets.

Shippers have long urged the construction of an entirely new border crossing that could connect U.S. Interstates 75 and 94 directly to Ontario’s Highway 401. On the eve of the 2008 financial crisis, those shippers finally got their way: The new crossing gained approval from the Michigan and Ontario highway departments.

The recession that began in 2007 temporarily depressed cross-border traffic. Yet it also added to the logic of a new crossing. With unemployment soaring in the Detroit-Windsor region, a big new bridge-highway project would deliver a welcome jolt to the local economy.

Plans for the new crossing failed, however, to reckon with two characteristics of the increasingly dysfunctional U.S. political system: Its extreme and intensifying tax aversion — and its vulnerability to manipulation by wealthy entrenched interest groups.

The existing Ambassador bridge is privately owned, and the main owner — Forbes 400 member Manuel Maroun — does not welcome competition. Even more than competition to his bridge, Maroun objects to competition for his duty-free gasoline stations. Those stations are exempt from taxes, yet sell gasoline for only marginally less than their tax-paying competition. Maroun has mounted a furious lobbying campaign against the second river crossing. He has gained some unexpected allies, including Americans for Prosperity, the Tea Party group headed by Dick Armey. The Michigan chapter of AFP posted convincing-looking (but fake) eviction notices on homes near the proposed crossing route. The group acknowledged that the tactic “was meant to startle people.”

AFP refused to say whether Maroun was paying for the campaign, explaining that its donor lists were private.

Bridges cost money: In this case, almost $4-billion. The state of Michigan’s share of the cost would have been $550-million, with the balance to come from the province of Ontario and the U.S. and Canadian federal governments. That $550-million sounds like a lot of money, but put it in context: Almost $500-million in traffic crosses the river every day. Yet the Tea Party Republican majority in the Michigan legislature — perhaps influenced by their friends, allies, supporters and donors at Americans for Prosperity — has objected to the cost, and passed a law forbidding the state to spend any money to build the bridge.

On Friday, Michigan governor Rick Snyder (also a Republican) announced a last-minute reprieve: Michigan would borrow its $550-million contribution from the government of Canada, with the money to be repaid from a bridge toll. It’s a creative solution to an embarrassing problem. But it’s also an excruciating demonstration of the global consequences of the special-interest domination of the U.S. Congress and the state legislatures.

It’s America’s political system — but it’s everybody’s problem.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... -s-bridge/


do michiganders really believe that only those michiganders that cross the bridge are benefiting from it?
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 18, 2012 11:33 am

No, and I don't know why you're assuming we would. Most people in Michigan know that this bridge is a good thing. The only people who don't are the ones being brain-washed by Matty Maroun's propaganda campaign.

While I agree that there is room for improvement in our political system, obviously some things are going right since an agreement was actually made. Rick Snyder was able to by-pass the Michigan Legislature (Snyder doesn't worry about campaigns or elections) in a way that was completely legal according to the Michigan Constitution and Law. It took a bit longer than we would have all liked, but at least it is getting done. That can't be said about a lot of projects in other places...
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 18, 2012 12:12 pm

I'm not assuming anything. Its the truth. Michigan has decided to put its share of the costs solely on those using the bridge via the toll.
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 18, 2012 1:06 pm

That is usually what tolls are used for...

I agree with the plan not because it is the fairest deal around (it certainly isn't) but because it is the best deal in the interest of Michiganders and the State of Michigan (we had a politician actually doing his job). Some Canadians may rightfully be put-off by the idea of initially paying for all the costs, but they signed the deal too. It is not about whether or not Michiganders/the Michigan government wants only people using the bridge to pay for it. Obviously the bridge will change the whole state. However, we would be stupid to turn-down the Canadian government's offer to pay for our share at first. Nearly free money that didn't come from a new tax, who would reject that? :wink:
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 18, 2012 1:16 pm

jonathan.jam wrote:That is usually what tolls are used for...

I agree with the plan not because it is the fairest deal around (it certainly isn't) but because it is the best deal in the interest of Michiganders and the State of Michigan (we had a politician actually doing his job). Some Canadians may rightfully be put-off by the idea of initially paying for all the costs, but they signed the deal too. It is not about whether or not Michiganders/the Michigan government wants only people using the bridge to pay for it. Obviously the bridge will change the whole state. However, we would be stupid to turn-down the Canadian government's offer to pay for our share at first. Nearly free money that didn't come from a new tax, who would reject that? :wink:

What's the economic situation in Michigan anyway? Detroit is pretty much a Zombie town I hear? Public finances must be pretty horrid these days, and it's probably not likely that Washington is paying much attention to Michigan's regional interests.

So I guess it made sense for Ottawa to step in and bridge the gap. Both Michigan and Ontario are hurting, this bridge will really be a booster for both sides of the river, and a much needed one.
User avatar
Americalex
Supporter
 
Posts: 20145
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 2:48 am
Location: Quebec

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 18, 2012 1:29 pm

jonathan.jam wrote:That is usually what tolls are used for...

I agree with the plan not because it is the fairest deal around (it certainly isn't) but because it is the best deal in the interest of Michiganders and the State of Michigan (we had a politician actually doing his job). Some Canadians may rightfully be put-off by the idea of initially paying for all the costs, but they signed the deal too. It is not about whether or not Michiganders/the Michigan government wants only people using the bridge to pay for it. Obviously the bridge will change the whole state. However, we would be stupid to turn-down the Canadian government's offer to pay for our share at first. Nearly free money that didn't come from a new tax, who would reject that? :wink:

I'm not put off at all! The bridge is necessary and its not up to canada how michigan pays so long as it pays. I'm just shocked at the attitude of the Michigander legislature.
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 18, 2012 1:36 pm

Bearsy wrote:I'm not put off at all! I'm just shocked at the attitude of the Michigander legislature.

Michiganese?
Michiganian?
Michiganer?

WHY D
User avatar
Americalex
Supporter
 
Posts: 20145
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 2:48 am
Location: Quebec

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 18, 2012 1:37 pm

lol its grown on me
Radical Centrist
User avatar
Bearsy
Opponent
 
Posts: 2094
Joined: May 03, 2012 11:27 pm
Location: Alberta

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 18, 2012 1:41 pm

Bearsy wrote:lol its grown on me

http://www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapi ... n_wha.html

Dammit it's winning! I like Michiganite it makes them sound like some forsaken sect from the bible.
User avatar
Americalex
Supporter
 
Posts: 20145
Joined: Aug 27, 2004 2:48 am
Location: Quebec

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby jonathan.jam » Jun 18, 2012 1:54 pm

>>When you're using it as an adjective, you use Michiganian (i.e. Michiganian Legislature OR Michigan Legislature NOT Michigander Legislature). More often you would just say "the Michigan Legislature." :wink:

@Bearsy: I'm upset with the attitude of the legislature, but I'm not necessarily shocked. The Moroun family has filled a lot of pockets in the legislature to make the representatives act this way. Apparently it doesn't cost much to buy the Michigan Legislature. :|

@Americalex: Michigan is actually making quite a turn-around. We still have a long ways to go, but we're getting there. I would put almost none of the thanks towards the federal government though. The regeneration here has been nearly completely on a state and local level. As you said, this new bridge will help immensely. Now, lets just get ride of that pesky international border while we're at it...

Oh, and I know you like graphics, so....

Image
User avatar
jonathan.jam
Supporter
 
Posts: 362
Joined: Apr 10, 2011 6:39 pm
Location: Michigan

PreviousNext

Return to Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests
cron