"The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 20, 2012 4:38 pm

Bearsy wrote:it doesn't help that rob ford is a nincompoop

You hate him because he's obese?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 20, 2012 4:43 pm

i don't hate him, i think he's rather foolish though.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Bearsy wrote:i don't hate him, i think he's rather foolish though.

Because he's obese?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Bearsy » Jun 20, 2012 4:54 pm

no because he does silly things and then i read about them online
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Bearsy wrote:no because he does silly things and then i read about them online

How conveniently generic.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby MrSG1 » Jun 21, 2012 12:53 am

Bearsy, why did you have to "de-rail" this thread, funny how that word comes into play when this has turned into a discussion about city transportation. You did not give a specific reason for your criticism of Mr. Ford, put up a talking point about it of what you don't like about him and then we'll discuss from there. Starting with calling him whatever you called him doesn't really help matters.

Now to the point:

So NWDave, you claim that Detroit once had a streetcar system, well pretty much every North American city had streetcars, you may or may not know but the streetcars in Toronto, a good portion of the routes never were killed, and some routes were expanded upon in the 90s. Streetcars sound good right, so let me tell you why they don't, and why a bus is more practical.

Image

While light rail systems are more advanced concepts on this, the fact remains, is that more damage is done than being good with streetcars on downtown streets. In Toronto, as you can probably see by that pic, the streetcar in a mixed-traffic scenario, always runs in the innermost lane on each side. So when the streetcar stops, and it has stops spaced part as often as typical bus routes, all traffic on the road in that same direction is forced to stop for the pedestrians to get on or off safely. A vehicle can not pass an open streetcar door, it's a huge fine. So now, think of this happening every 300 feet, and you see why the streetcar is not so great.

Also streetcars are confined to the rail they run on, they can not get around a blockage like a bus can, and yes I've seen buses do the streetcar routes on occasion. While a streetcar may seem to have slightly better acceleration than a bus, at the end of the day, if you were to comapre how long a bus completes a route and a streetcar, it would be roughly the same.

They like to say that streetcars are electric, while that is of course true, look at the bigger picture, look at how power is generated for the cities, and you realize it's not really a green solution in the end. Streetcars may show no emissions in the city, but there are enivoronmental impacts with them.

Image

I am also not really a fan of light rail, at least light rail done in this sense. Here on Spadina Avenue in Toronto, while we don't have a TRUE LRT system, this is the closest thing to one. All the LRTs Toronto wants to build, which were subway in the 80s Network 2011 plan will be built in this model on SUBURBAN streets, with a streetcar like vehicle in the middle of the road. As you can see, left turns are more highly prohibitive now, and doing that in suburbia is asking for trouble. Also while streetcars are supposed to in this case have a red light signal priority, as you can see, that's claerly not the case in this picture. The streetcar is freaking STOPPED at the light, the new LRT routes they have planned will just be glorified express bus routes.

Trust me NWDave, while streetcars may look cool with the whole track and wire above, I admit they do have a certain attraction to them, however, the way how they rule the roads they run on is not good for everyone.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 21, 2012 11:54 am

Seattle has streetcar/bus hybrids. They are basically a bus with an extendable arm on the roof that connects to the power cable when the bus is under it.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 21, 2012 12:00 pm

Windwalker wrote:Seattle has streetcar/bus hybrids. They are basically a bus with an extendable arm on the roof that connects to the power cable when the bus is under it.

It makes insanely good sense to me lol So the cars can cohabit with them on the same lanes right?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 21, 2012 12:06 pm

Americalex wrote:
Windwalker wrote:Seattle has streetcar/bus hybrids. They are basically a bus with an extendable arm on the roof that connects to the power cable when the bus is under it.

It makes insanely good sense to me lol So the cars can cohabit with them on the same lanes right?

Yep. Though when you consider that Seattle probably gets most of its electricity from coal burning powerplants, whats the point, lol.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Americalex » Jun 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Windwalker wrote:
Americalex wrote:
Windwalker wrote:Seattle has streetcar/bus hybrids. They are basically a bus with an extendable arm on the roof that connects to the power cable when the bus is under it.

It makes insanely good sense to me lol So the cars can cohabit with them on the same lanes right?

Yep. Though when you consider that Seattle probably gets most of its electricity from coal burning powerplants, whats the point, lol.

The subway in Montreal is also on wheels, much quieter way of doing business. It makes sense underground/indoors since the fumes from combustion engines would be poisonous or something. And out here we mostly rely on clean renewable hydro electric power.

Out in Quebec city they were test running a fleet of wooden made electric battery powered buses, but they kept bursting into flames to they went back to the normal kind lol Meanwhile Montreal is collapsing around us, giant holes and falling rocks etc.

Image

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/ ... march.html

Image

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le4192843/

In all fairness our infrastructure ages quicker due to our environment: Humid climate mixed with extreme variations in temperature (+40 celcius to -40 celcius). But still, the decades of socialist neglect are taking their toll and now the situation is shamefully forlorn.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 21, 2012 7:52 pm

wow so much to comment on :lol:

In Toronto, as you can probably see by that pic, the streetcar in a mixed-traffic scenario, always runs in the innermost lane on each side. So when the streetcar stops, and it has stops spaced part as often as typical bus routes, all traffic on the road in that same direction is forced to stop for the pedestrians to get on or off safely


thats not an inditment on streetcars, its because your city planners fucked up, to put it nicely, I've actually read up on Torontos streetcar system in the last year (yeah, I know, Im a fuckin nerd) and I have experience with many other streetcar systems (including portland, considered the north American streetcar mecca) and these problems dont exist in well planned streetcar systems. in a well planned system the passengers will enter and exit through a center platform on an island in the median of the road and wait to cross to the sidewalk untill the crosswalk signal changes for all pedestrians. also many street car systems (especially in europe) run in their own ROW (right of way) and have signal priority which means they actually go faster then auto traffic.

think of this happening every 300 feet, and you see why the streetcar is not so great.


this sounds like another city planner blunder 300 feet is far to close between stops for any kind of transit.

Also streetcars are confined to the rail they run on, they can not get around a blockage like a bus can, and yes I've seen buses do the streetcar routes on occasion. While a streetcar may seem to have slightly better acceleration than a bus, at the end of the day, if you were to comapre how long a bus completes a route and a streetcar, it would be roughly the same.


true, rout completion time with Buses vs. streetcar is not an improvment in its own right worth making the initial investment but streetcars have other massive advantages.
1)since streetcar tickets are bought before entering the streetcar its load unload time is much quicker.
2)the ride is much smother, quieter and more comfortable
3)studies show people who would otherwise not take transit are far more likely to use a streetcar than a bus due to bus travels bad reputation and streetcars cool factor
4) a streetcar line is an actual investment in a area, unlike buses it cant be moved or shifted, meaning it will always be there, meaning the passengers getting on and off will always be there it is an asset to the area it services, this investment spurs TOD (transit oriented development) which brings more jobs and residents to an area (we have already seen this with our new streetcar in seattle.
5) while the up front investment is much much higher, over years of use the streetcar is actualy more economical, the actual streetcar takes far less maintenence than a bus, saves a fortune in fuel casts and does much less damage to roads over time.

I am also not really a fan of light rail, at least light rail done in this sense. Here on Spadina Avenue in Toronto, while we don't have a TRUE LRT system, this is the closest thing to one. All the LRTs Toronto wants to build, which were subway in the 80s Network 2011 plan will be built in this model on SUBURBAN streets, with a streetcar like vehicle in the middle of the road. As you can see, left turns are more highly prohibitive now, and doing that in suburbia is asking for trouble. Also while streetcars are supposed to in this case have a red light signal priority, as you can see, that's claerly not the case in this picture. The streetcar is freaking STOPPED at the light, the new LRT routes they have planned will just be glorified express bus routes.


once again, thats just a poorly done system, we have a few issues like this here to, as a result of doing things on the cheap a proper system would not have these problems, I wish we could do all subway, but most governments cant afford it these days. also, aren't those just the turn lights that are red? it looks like the through lights are green so the streetcar can go to the next stop.

Seattle has streetcar/bus hybrids. They are basically a bus with an extendable arm on the roof that connects to the power cable when the bus is under it.


yes we do, they run on the old streetcar lines and can drive in either lane and simply disconect when leaving the wires and run on diesle, smart idea, but the vast majority of people here would rather have streetcars for the reasons ive mentioned above.

Yep. Though when you consider that Seattle probably gets most of its electricity from coal burning powerplants, whats the point, lol.


we get our electricity from hydroelectric dams, but what you are saying would be true for most of north America, we are super green here due to our natural resources. but my like of mass transit is less for enviromental reasons than because its a more smart and efficient and cheaper way to travel and it creats better cities and helps the community out immensly.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 21, 2012 11:37 pm

we get our electricity from hydroelectric dams, but what you are saying would be true for most of north America, we are super green here due to our natural resources

Great! I've got a dam to sell you if you are dumb enough to believe that crock of shit. Yes, Hydro makes up 85% of electricity PRODUCED in Washinton, but Washington, like Oregon, imports most of its power from other States (and a large chunk from Canada, too!) Your own State website won't even answer this question directly, and instead refers you to data from 1996 when only about half of Washington's actual power usage was coming from coal and natural gas. (I'll let you in on a little secret, the dams are still producing the same amount now as they were then, yet usage has increased.)

http://www.commerce.wa.gov/energy/archive/Indicators99/Indicator3.htm
Image
WHILE 85 PERCENT OF ELECTRICITY GENERATED IN WASHINGTON COMES FROM HYDROELECTRIC DAMS, WASHINGTON CONSUMERS ARE SERVED BY ELECTRICITY FROM GENERATING PLANTS LOCATED THROUGHOUT THE WESTERN INTER-CONNECTION. MANY OF THESE PLANTS ARE FIRED BY COAL OR NATURAL GAS.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 22, 2012 2:06 pm

yeah buddy, my father hasn't worked the last 30 years for the orginazation that supplies all power for washington and oregon :roll: WESTERN WASHINGTON (where Seattle is located) gets it's electricity from hydroelectric.

if you want to debate where spokane or pullman or ellensburg or pasco or any other part of eastern washington get their power go ahead, I dont give a shit. .

what do you think I'm just talking out of my ass? do you think I would just say where we get our power and not really know? who are you trying to kid man? fuck off with your stupid bullshit.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 22, 2012 2:23 pm

NWDave83 wrote:yeah buddy, my father hasn't worked the last 30 years for the orginazation that supplies all power for washington and oregon :roll: WESTERN WASHINGTON (where Seattle is located) gets it's electricity from hydroelectric.

if you want to debate where spokane or pullman or ellensburg or pasco or any other part of eastern washington get their power go ahead, I dont give a shit. .

what do you think I'm just talking out of my ass? do you think I would just say where we get our power and not really know? who are you trying to kid man? fuck off with your stupid bullshit.


Oh, so I'm sorry for looking it up on wa.gov when the almighty Dave knows someone who knows someone, my bad, lol. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT (period) until you can back it up with some actual data. Most of the Hydro power in the NW is owned by and used by the Federal Government. Seattle proper imports most of its power.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 22, 2012 3:12 pm

Oh, so I'm sorry for looking it up on wa.gov when the almighty Dave knows someone who knows someone, my bad, lol. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT (period) until you can back it up with some actual data. Most of the Hydro power in the NW is owned by and used by the Federal Government. Seattle proper imports most of its power


Seattle City Light (SCL) is the public utility providing electrical power to Seattle, Washington, US, and parts of its metropolitan area, including all of Shoreline and Lake Forest Park and parts of unincorporated King County, Burien, Normandy Park, Seatac, Renton, and Tukwila.[1]
For 2009, the fuel mix for Seattle City Light was approximately 91.2% hydroelectric, 4.4% nuclear, 2.3% wind, 1.4% coal, 0.6% natural gas, and 0.1% biomass and other sources


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_City_Light

there you go, smart guy. so who's full of shit?
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 22, 2012 4:24 pm

Ok so I clicked on your link (did you think I wouldn't?) and here is the entire paragraph you cut up (bold print is mine):

Seattle City Light (SCL) is the public utility providing electrical power to Seattle, Washington, US, and parts of its metropolitan area, including all of Shoreline and Lake Forest Park and parts of unincorporated King County, Burien, Normandy Park, Seatac, Renton, and Tukwila.[1] About 740,000 residents (405,000 metered customers) are being served by Seattle City Light


There are 3,439,809 people in the Seattle metro area, so you have proven that 91.1% of 21.5% (19.6%) of the residences in Seattle get their power from Hydro. And what about industrial and Commercial customers? Your wiki reference didn't even mention them. Your numbers are deficient at best. Go find a website where people are dumb enough to believe that 19.6% is a majority and pawn your crap there.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 22, 2012 5:17 pm

my god you're a moron. we were talking about what the power source for the streetcars in seattle was and you said coal. you couldnt be more wrong. but if you really want to talk about the entire region ok....

the puget sound region is served by four major energy suppliers.

1)Seattle city light-

Seattle City Light (SCL) is the public utility providing electrical power to Seattle, Washington, US, and parts of its metropolitan area, including all of Shoreline and Lake Forest Park and parts of unincorporated King County, Burien, Normandy Park, Seatac, Renton, and Tukwila.[1] About 740,000 residents (405,000 metered customers) are being served by Seattle City Light.[2]

For 2009, the fuel mix for Seattle City Light was approximately 91.2% hydroelectric, 4.4% nuclear, 2.3% wind, 1.4% coal, 0.6% natural gas, and 0.1% biomass and other sources.[3] The utility owns and operates the Skagit River Hydroelectric Project, a series of three hydroelectric dams on the Skagit River in northern Washington State. The project supplies approximately 25 percent of Seattle's electric power. The utility also owns and operates the Boundary Dam on the Pend Oreille River which can provide up to approximately 50% of Seattle's electric power.[4] The remaining power comes from a mix of sources, including long-term contracts with the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA).[3] According to SCL, residential customers currently pay about 6 cents per kilowatt-hour of electricity. Seattle has the lowest residential and commercial electrical rates amongst comparably-sized cities in the United States.[5]


2) Snohomish county Public Utility District (PUD)-

Snohomish County Public Utility District is a public utility providing power to 320,000 customers in Snohomish County and on Camano Island, Washington. It provides water service to over 20,000 customers in the northeast section of the Snohomish County.

The utility is the second largest public utility in the Pacific Northwest and the 12th largest in the United States. It is the largest of 28 PUDs in the state of Washington. The PUD is the largest utility customer of the Bonneville Power Administration, a major wholesale marketer of energy in the Western United States.

The utility is one of the leaders in tidal[1][2] and geothermal[3][4] energy research in the Pacific Northwest, both of which are clean, reliable and plentiful in the region. In 2010, the utility received $10 million in Federal funding towards its pilot tidal project.[5] Other energy comes from renewable hydroelectric sources, co-generation projects fueled by biogas and biomass and wind energy projects. The utility started offering incentives, loans and other resources for small-scale solar installations in spring 2009.[6]

85% - Bonneville Power Administration
7% - Wind Energy Purchases
5% - PUD-owned Hydroelectric Projects
4% - Cogeneration, Landfill Gas and Biomass


Bonneville Power Administration provides the bulk of the PUD’s energy. BPA markets wholesale electricity from 31 federal hydroelectric projects in the Columbia River Basin, one non-federal nuclear plant and several other small non-federal plants. BPA, headquartered in Portland, Oregon, is a federal agency under the U.S. Department of Energy.

The PUD purchases wind energy from the Wheat Field Wind Project,[9] and the Hay Canyon Wind Project, both located in north central Oregon, along the Columbia River Gorge. The utility will receive about 60 average-megawatts from these facilities, starting in spring 2009.

The Henry M. Jackson Hydroelectric Project, which began operating in 1984, is located in the Sultan River Basin. The hydroelectric generating facility produces about 48 average-megawatts, or about 4 percent of the PUD’s power needs. In addition to generating enough power for 35,800 homes using a clean renewable resource, the project also provides recreation, enhances fish and wildlife habitats, provides an element of flood control and assures an abundance of clean drinking water. The utility is developing several additional small, low-impact hydroelectric facilities for energy generation in its service area.[10][11][12]

The PUD also receives power from the Everett Cogeneration Project built at Kimberly-Clark Corporation’s plant on the Everett waterfront. This project converts wood-waste into steam for Kimberly-Clark’s paper-making business and generates enough electricity for about 21,000 homes. The PUD receives energy from another biomass project at the Hampton Lumber Mill in Darrington, Washington.

In addition, the PUD purchases energy from the Klickitat PUD Landfill Gas Project[13] in Eastern Washington. It supplies the PUD with about 5 megawatts of electricity – enough to power about 3,500 homes. The project captures methane from decomposing garbage to generate electricity.


3)Puget Sound Energy

serves electricity to more than 1.1 million customers in Island, Jefferson, King, Kitsap, Kittitas, Pierce, Skagit, Thurston, and Whatcom counties

This area includes much of the more developed areas of western Washington State, excluding electrical service to the major cities of Seattle, Tacoma, and Everett, which are served by Seattle City Light, Tacoma Power, and Snohomish County PUD respectively. PSE shares effective control over electric transmission in the region with Bonneville Power Administration, which owns or controls much of the state's large transmission lines and hydro generation

Coal accounts for 36% of PSE’s electricity fuel mix [1]. PSE's partial ownership of Eastern Montana's Colstrip Generating Station represents the single largest power-generating facility PSE owns, approximately 700 MW of generating capacity. In 2010,

Hydroelectricity generates 33% of PSE’s power supply. [3]. The company operates these hydroelectric facilities:

The Baker River Hydroelectric Project on the Baker River, a tributary of the Skagit River in Skagit County. There are two dams on the river, generating 170 MW of electricity.
Two power plants at Snoqualmie Falls Hydroelectric Project, on the Snoqualmie River in King County. The generating capacity of these two power plants, currently 44 MW, will increase to 54 MW following the completion of the Snoqualmie Falls redevelopment project currently underway.
The Electron Hydroelectric Project on the Puyallup River in Pierce County generates 22 MW of electricity.
Natural gas-fired power generation accounts for 29% of the utility’s electricity fuel mix[4]. The company operates these natural gas-fired facilities:

The Sumas Generating Station in Whatcom County is a cogeneration natural gas–fired plant capable of generating 125 MW of electricity.
The Encogen Generating Station in Whatcom County is a combined-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 167 MW of electricity.
The Goldendale Generating Station in Klickitat County is a combined-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 277 MW of electricity.
The Mint Farm Generating Station in Cowlitz County is a combined-cycle natural-gas-fired plant capable of generating 310 MW of electricity.
The Fredonia Generating Station in Skagit County is a simple-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 314 MW of electricity.
The Frederickson Generating Station in Pierce County is a simple-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 147 MW of electricity; the nearby Frederickson 1 Generating Station is a combined-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 137 MW of electricity.
The Whitehorn Generating Station in Whatcom County is a simple-cycle natural gas-fired plant capable of generating 147 MW of electricity.
Wind power and other generation sources, such as biomass and landfill gas, account for 1% of the utility’s electricity fuel mix[5]. PSE is the second-largest utility owner of wind energy facilities in the United States. The company owns and operates these wind-power facilities:

The Hopkins Ridge Wind Facility in southeast Washington’s Columbia County began commercial production in 2005. Hopkins Ridge’s 87 wind turbines have the capacity to generate 157 MW of electricity.
The Wild Horse Wind and Solar Facility in central Washington’s Kittitas County began production in 2006 and was expanded to include 22 turbines in 2009. Wild Horse’s 149 wind turbines have the capacity to generate 273 MW of electricity.
In 2012, the first phase of the the Lower Snake River Wind Project begins in Southeast Washington's Garfield County. Lower Snaker River Phase 1's 149 turbines have the capacity to generate 343 MW of electricity.
Wild Horse also includes the region’s largest utility-owned solar array, a 500-kilowatt demonstration project (0.01% of total PSE generating capacity), and the Renewable Energy Center, which is open to visitors from April through November.


4)Tacoma Power- Gets all its power from BPA= hydro

is a public utility providing electrical power to Tacoma, Washington and the surrounding areas. Tacoma Power serves the cities of Tacoma, Fircrest, University Place, and Fife, and also provides service to parts of Steilacoom, Lakewood and unincorporated Pierce County. It is a division of the Tacoma Public Utilities


source- wikipedia

listen dude, I don't know why you think you are right on this. if you notice in every quote they talk about the Bonneville Power Administration (BPA) it's a semi automonous Federal outfit that deals with the Hydroelectric power transmission for all of the Pac NW, my dad has worked there for 30+ years, he has been dealing on a day to day basis with Tacoma Power, Seattle City Light, Puget Sound Energy and Snohomish PUD for thirty years, my entire childhood growing up all I heard about was fucking electricity and the day to day operations of the Puget Sound electric grid.

you are wrong, you have been wrong about this from the moment you said it. its not a grey area, the VAST majority of all power for the entire region is Hydroelectric. over 90% in Seattle, the city this entire conversation is about.

Seattles Streetcars run on 100% renewable Hydroelectric energy both from BPA and Seattle City Light dams, always has, always will. they are not run on mostly coal and natural gas from other states and Canada as you foolishly tried to claim without a clue.

you are wrong, admit it.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby Windwalker » Jun 22, 2012 6:54 pm

I am not above admitting when I am wrong about something, I am just tired of your constant ad hominems and insults. It wouldn't surprise me if Seattle is sucking up all the Hydro-power in the Columbia Basin, while everyone else in the region is forced to use alternate sources.

I just wanted to see you back up that big-ass mouth of yours for once.
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby NWDave83 » Jun 22, 2012 7:13 pm

I'm not above being wrong either, you just unluckily picked one of the subjects I was force fed from birth. :lol: anyways, not a big deal. I'm sure you will have many more occassions to try and "back up my big ass mouth" in the future. :wink:
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Re: "The U.S. and Canada: We Used to be Friends"

Postby joahob » Jun 22, 2012 11:06 pm

"Windwalker and NWDave83: We Used to be Friends."
The enclosure in which the citizens were mustered prior to casting their vote was known as the ovile, which literally means "sheep-pen".
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