Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 04, 2013 2:46 pm

Milton wrote:I really don't like that idea.---Milton

And yet it is a growing trend among a segment of the English-Canadian conservative minded folk. There is a lot of buzz in their media about promoting this notion, it is a very tangible notion for many of them. And what is even more interesting is that many of them feel that kicking Quebec out should be done while partitioning it and slapping it with a part of the national debt.

I think they have an inferiority complex that they are trying to assuage in that manner.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Milton » Jan 04, 2013 3:18 pm

Americalex wrote:And yet it is a growing trend among a segment of the English-Canadian conservative minded folk. There is a lot of buzz in their media about promoting this notion, it is a very tangible notion for many of them. And what is even more interesting is that many of them feel that kicking Quebec out should be done while partitioning it and slapping it with a part of the national debt.

I think they have an inferiority complex that they are trying to assuage in that manner.

Maybe so, but anyway I don't like it.---Milton
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Lord Don-Jam » Jan 04, 2013 4:31 pm

Americalex wrote:
Milton wrote:I really don't like that idea.---Milton

And yet it is a growing trend among a segment of the English-Canadian conservative minded folk. There is a lot of buzz in their media about promoting this notion, it is a very tangible notion for many of them. And what is even more interesting is that many of them feel that kicking Quebec out should be done while partitioning it and slapping it with a part of the national debt.

I think they have an inferiority complex that they are trying to assuage in that manner.

Their idiots, there no way under international law to forced a new sovereign state to accept any of the old county’s national debt if it does not want to. All of the national debt is in the old county’s name and the market will demand they pay it in full. If Canada refused to pay, say 20%, of her national debt saying that’s 20% belongs to Quebec the market will say ‘no its not, it’s in your name’ and see it as a default, Canada’s rating will then do what any county’s rating will do when it default, her rating will plummet, therefore her interest rates on the bond market will skyrocket, she then will not be able borrow money to pay for government expenditure nor the be able to be the interest on the other 80% of the national debt, therefore she will default on that too, therefore her rating will plummet again, therefore her her interest rates on the bond market will skyrocket again too, therefore the Canadian government will have no money to pay government bills or wages, therefore ... Well you all know where that will go.

So Canada would have no choice but to keep paying Quebec share becoue the other choice is even worst.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby FreeSlave » Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm

Americalex wrote:I wonder if there might be a movement in Conservative English-Canada to promote kicking Quebec out literally? "If they won't leave, we will make them leave" type of approach. That could indeed force a fragmentation to happen.

Do you think western Canada will secede from the rest of Canada?
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Lord Don-Jam » Jan 04, 2013 5:20 pm

FreeSlave wrote:
Americalex wrote:I wonder if there might be a movement in Conservative English-Canada to promote kicking Quebec out literally? "If they won't leave, we will make them leave" type of approach. That could indeed force a fragmentation to happen.

Do you think western Canada will secede from the rest of Canada?

I can’t see it unless something big happens. Why would Saskatchewan and Manitoba wish to go? What would each get by going alone? What would they can be joining new state call western Canada that they don’t already get are part of Canada?
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 04, 2013 8:07 pm

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Quebec should carry its part of the national debt if and when it leaves Canada.

The same rules should apply for any province wishing to exit the Confederation in my opinion. But what very few conservative-socialists realize is that debt is a negative asset. We take our share of the federal negative assets, sure, but we also take our share of the positive assets. Among which assets are the Territories. But we can work things out by negotiating. Personally I'd be happy to retrieve Labrador if Newfoundland can be made to consent to it of course. We could buy it from them with the money we get from selling our part of the federal territories back to the ROC basically. Partition is extremely unlikely to be acceptable, but I'm sure we could work bilaterally with English-Canada to work these things out as part of a comprehensive exit agreement that is acceptable to all parties.

As for Western Canada leaving Canada, that seems more unlikely to me than Quebec leaving (and that is unlikely from the start, since we basically created Canada, and later welcomed various waves of American exiles). One thing that is not going for them is that they all signed the socialist Constitution of 1982, they are not in a legal grey zone about their sovereign status compared to Quebec. And exiting the Canadian federation is harder for them as a result. It is not impossible, but it would take much more effort on their end, to convince enough people on both sides of the desired divide, so I think it will never happen.

One reason why some English-Canadian conservatives want Quebec out of the way, is because they know that as long as Quebec is a member province, Ontario is a swing province in any election. Which means that as long as Quebec is part of Canada, they cannot really hope to dominate federal politics, they could be expunged from Ottawa at some point. And that would be bad news to the folks out in the West who primarily identify with conservatism as their desired iteration of a successful Canada. And to their credit, although Harper's conservatives have done a couple of despicable socialist moves (which is acceptable dirty politics ultimately since they have to abide by the inherent rules of democracy), overall they have done a pretty good job at confronting socialism when they could get away with it.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby UPRcanadian » Jan 04, 2013 8:48 pm

Americalex wrote:Personally I'd be happy to retrieve Labrador if Newfoundland can be made to consent to it of course. We could buy it from them with the money we get from selling our part of the federal territories back to the ROC basically. Partition is extremely unlikely to be acceptable, but I'm sure we could work bilaterally with English-Canada to work these things out as part of a comprehensive exit agreement that is acceptable to all parties.

Seeing as this isn't the 1800s I don't think Quebec will be able to purchase Labrador from Newfoundland any more than the US could purchase Quebec from Canada. The idea of "purchasing" the land that a bunch of people are living on from a separate group of people is very colonial and I don't think Labradorians or most Canadians for that matter would approve.

That said if Labradorian's wanted to join Quebec with or without incentives (to be given to Labradorians themselves, not Newfoundland) then that would be fine. However I don't think that's very likely.

As to the partition issue I personally think it is very likely to happen since Northern Quebec voted 95% to stay in Canada in the last referendum and the PQ government said they would approve of it.

Americalex wrote:One reason why some English-Canadian conservatives want Quebec out of the way, is because they know that as long as Quebec is a member province, Ontario is a swing province in any election. Which means that as long as Quebec is part of Canada, they cannot really hope to dominate federal politics, they could be expunged from Ottawa at some point. And that would be bad news to the folks out in the West who primarily identify with conservatism as their desired iteration of a successful Canada. And to their credit, although Harper's conservatives have done a couple of despicable socialist moves (which is acceptable dirty politics ultimately since they have to abide by the inherent rules of democracy), overall they have done a pretty good job at confronting socialism when they could get away with it.

Western Canada would be happy about not having the left wing Quebec in the house of commons. They would also be happy about getting rid of bilingualism. However they would definitely be unhappy about the idea of Ontario having more than half of the seats in the house of commons. So, it would be hard to tell what their reaction would be.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 04, 2013 8:50 pm

And do you consider yourself a liberal or conservative leaning English-Canadian? I'm curious because if you are liberal leaning it means that the general feelings you just describe apply basically to the whole of English-Canadian sentiment, independent of political affinity.

So I see, for you partition is a one way street. It works when it's not your side, got it. It's okay to be unprincipled as much as you want, in the end there are other factors than mere opinions that would determine the settlement outcome in the event of a Quebec separation.

As for federal bilingualism, it is ironic/irrational to say the least that Western Canada now blames Quebec for something that we refused to sign but which they themselves signed into constitutional law. It's a catch 22 and the Truth is the first casualty of this mentality of willful ignorance.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Milton » Jan 04, 2013 9:06 pm

Personally I would prefer that If Canada is to join the U.S., then it would be better to join as a whole, with the consent of a majority of all voters. I don't like the implications of all this sneaky underhandedness.---Milton
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby UPRcanadian » Jan 04, 2013 9:24 pm

I guess you could call me 'liberal' although I wouldn't call myself that and I don't really identify with the liberal party (or any parties for that matter.) however I am not sure what feelings you're referencing. My last paragraph was about how the Western provinces would react. The only opinions I stated were that I don't think we should be selling land between provinces ( it should be up to the people living on those lands) and that I think is would be likely that North Quebec would split off from Quebec since they would have support from Canada, Quebec, and their own people to do it.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 04, 2013 9:38 pm

UPRcanadian wrote:I guess you could call me 'liberal' although I wouldn't call myself that and I don't really identify with the liberal party (or any parties for that matter.) however I am not sure what feelings you're referencing. My last paragraph was about how the Western provinces would react. The only opinions I stated were that I don't think we should be selling land between provinces ( it should be up to the people living on those lands) and that I think is would be likely that North Quebec would split off from Quebec since they would have support from Canada, Quebec, and their own people to do it.

Yes that is what I was referring to. Are those perceptions and beliefs widespread among the left in your nation at the moment? I am aware that they are within the more conservative leaning circles of your social organism, but I was still under the impression that many on the left we not so irremediably convinced of the propriety of adopting such a stance towards Quebecers. For the sake of things, I have met a few conservative-capitalists who have stated reluctantly that they would not attempt a partition of Quebec if it came to separation, but they know they speak against the herd when they dare say this.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Milton » Jan 04, 2013 9:39 pm

What I object to is people (I'm not referring to you personally, by the way) trying to split Canada up so that people feel under duress and feel as if they have to join the U.S. If the U.S. and Canada are to be united I want everything to be above board and honest, with no "sneaking around in the dark" etc. I would want only a union of two great Nations that were strong and free, and proud, not one being swallowed up by the other, in some creepy underhanded way where one country was desperate and falling apart.---Milton
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby UPRcanadian » Jan 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Americalex wrote:Yes that is what I was referring to. Are those perceptions and beliefs widespread among the left in your nation at the moment? I am aware that they are within the more conservative leaning circles of your social organism, but I was still under the impression that many on the left we not so irremediably convinced of the propriety of adopting such a stance towards Quebecers. For the sake of things, I have met a few conservative-capitalists who have stated reluctantly that they would not attempt a partition of Quebec if it came to separation, but they know they speak against the herd when they dare say this.

It isn't a stance towards Quebeckers specifically. I wouldn't approve of BC selling its eastern regions to Alberta, I wouldn't approve of Toronto selling Etobicoke to Mississauga, I wouldn't approve of Canada selling Manitoba to the US, and I wouldn't approve Newfoundland selling Labrador to Quebec.

And this is a position that I believe is shared by most Canadians.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 04, 2013 9:52 pm

UPRcanadian wrote:It isn't a stance towards Quebeckers specifically. I wouldn't approve of BC selling its eastern regions to Alberta, I wouldn't approve of Toronto selling Etobicoke to Mississauga, I wouldn't approve of Canada selling Manitoba to the US, and I wouldn't approve Newfoundland selling Labrador to Quebec.

And this is a position that I believe is shared by most Canadians.

You mean, most English-Canadians. You will have a monopoly over the term Canadian once Quebec is kicked out or leaves of it's own accord, basically. For me as a capitalist, I don't care what consensual deals other provinces engage in, considering that I do not live in them and do not intend to live in them either. The reality is that English-Canadian federalism is a hollowed out concept, a joke.

You guys are acting like a unitary state and this is pretty much what you are at this point. Are you guys willing (aching?) to go to war with Quebec over partition? Because that is definitely the feeling we get as Quebecers. The feeling that for many English-Canadians, the rule of law only exists when it's on your side. And if you have it within your mentality to think that this is the way things are and should be, we shall prepare our military defenses accordingly.

What other parts of Quebec besides the North do you want to impose partition upon? Down to any individual household that would vote against separation, basically? Or perhaps you think that it would need to go within households also, parts of a certain house would have to be partitioned depending on which members of a family voted yes/no etc. So for you (and the majority of your nation) there is no constitutional guarantee of territorial integrity for Canada's member provinces.

This is very much different from what the American constitution offers and ensures, through military means. The more you guys push for partition, the more enticing the prospect of American statehood will become for Quebecers, I am telling you this as a nobody with an opinion. It will be awkward if English-Canadian militarism ends up convincing Quebecers to seek a sovereign annexation within the United States of America as a State in order to preserve their interests.

Because if that ever happens, the school yard bully might suddenly become the bullied. It is pure hypocrisy on your part to oppose consent based contractual agreements between sovereign entities with one hand, while with the other advocating and supporting the very same forcible annexation policies of the Imperial era which you so insolently decry. Do you consider your positions mainstream within the anti-liberal English-Canadian left?

Milton wrote:What I object to is people (I'm not referring to you personally, by the way) trying to split Canada up so that people feel under duress and feel as if they have to join the U.S. If the U.S. and Canada are to be united I want everything to be above board and honest, with no "sneaking around in the dark" etc. I would want only a union of two great Nations that were strong and free, and proud, not one being swallowed up by the other, in some creepy underhanded way where one country was desperate and falling apart.---Milton

I know right! Well I'm on the same page as you about this. At the same time, Quebec is in a difficult situation since it has been effectively pushed into a grey zone when it comes to it's sovereign status as per the unilateral English-Canadian constitutional patriation. And since I live in Quebec, if English-Canada ever becomes hostile to our dignity and interests I will evidently be compelled to take sides and do my best to ensure that Quebec doesn't have to suffer the humiliation and inequity that some feel they are entitled to impose on it.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby UPRcanadian » Jan 04, 2013 11:54 pm

Americalex wrote:
UPRcanadian wrote:It isn't a stance towards Quebeckers specifically. I wouldn't approve of BC selling its eastern regions to Alberta, I wouldn't approve of Toronto selling Etobicoke to Mississauga, I wouldn't approve of Canada selling Manitoba to the US, and I wouldn't approve Newfoundland selling Labrador to Quebec.

And this is a position that I believe is shared by most Canadians.

You mean, most English-Canadians. You will have a monopoly over the term Canadian once Quebec is kicked out or leaves of it's own accord, basically.

No, I do mean all Canadians. I brought up what I believe to be two separate issues. The first is that I don't support a country/province/city selling a part of it self to another country/province/city because I don't think this is fair to all the people living on the region being sold and I doubt it would even be legal. Certainly you would agree Quebeckers would be against the Federal Government selling Quebec to the United States? Newfoundland selling Labrador to Quebec is simply a step down from that.

As to the partition issue. You seem to think that I think English Canada should be able to split up Quebec as they want. However I haven't formed an opinion on the partition in general but I can guarantee you I wouldn't support English Canada making the decisions. No, I was simply saying what I think will happen. And what I think would happen were Quebec to separate is that Northern Quebec would separate from Quebec. This is for several reasons:

1. Northern Quebec is almost all Cree and Inuit who are almost all against separating from Canada.
2. Technically Quebec wouldn't have the right to maintain control of Northern Quebec because it was giving stewardship of the territory through two acts of parliament with the condition of it being a province. So if it were to leave Canada these acts would become void.
3. The Parti Quebecois said it would be okay for Northern Quebec to stay with Canada since according to the Parti Quebecois the First Nations there never gave up there sovereignty in the first place.

Taken all together it seems very likely to me that Northern Quebec would be able to separate from Quebec.

As to any other partitions occurring I have no idea or opinion. However I can tell you that very few English Canadians (if any) are pushing for the partition of Quebec. In fact I don't think many have even thought about it.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 05, 2013 1:24 am

UPRcanadian wrote:No, I do mean all Canadians. I brought up what I believe to be two separate issues. The first is that I don't support a country/province/city selling a part of it self to another country/province/city because I don't think this is fair to all the people living on the region being sold and I doubt it would even be legal.

You lack the basic political education into the fact that Municipalities form a layer of government wielding delegated powers from the province. The sovereignty flows from the individuals to their state/province government. The provincial government then creates municipalities as it sees fit, and can modify them and change them as needed. If you wake up one day and decide you feel the time has come to tell us why you think it absolutely unconditionally has not choice but to be unfair to those living in the given region, let me know.

UPRcanadian wrote:Certainly you would agree Quebeckers would be against the Federal Government selling Quebec to the United States? Newfoundland selling Labrador to Quebec is simply a step down from that.

An absurd and irresponsible logical fallacy. You are keen to promote your anti-quebec rhetoric but in reality Northern Quebec and Labrador have terribly small populations (26,000 in the case of Labrador, 40,000 in the case of Northern Quebec: they are provincial territories), too small for self-government as a matter of fact. And a population density that is almost entirely irrelevant when contrasted with the economic interests and the natural resources involved with their ownership. Quebec's interest in Labrador as a Sovereign Independent state lies in the strategic value of having defensible borders which is enabled by controlling the natural litoral borders of our continental region.

UPRcanadian wrote:As to the partition issue. You seem to think that I think English Canada should be able to split up Quebec as they want. However I haven't formed an opinion on the partition in general but I can guarantee you I wouldn't support English Canada making the decisions. No, I was simply saying what I think will happen. And what I think would happen were Quebec to separate is that Northern Quebec would separate from Quebec. This is for several reasons:

1. Northern Quebec is almost all Cree and Inuit who are almost all against separating from Canada.
2. Technically Quebec wouldn't have the right to maintain control of Northern Quebec because it was giving stewardship of the territory through two acts of parliament with the condition of it being a province. So if it were to leave Canada these acts would become void.
3. The Parti Quebecois said it would be okay for Northern Quebec to stay with Canada since according to the Parti Quebecois the First Nations there never gave up there sovereignty in the first place.

Taken all together it seems very likely to me that Northern Quebec would be able to separate from Quebec.

As to any other partitions occurring I have no idea or opinion. However I can tell you that very few English Canadians (if any) are pushing for the partition of Quebec. In fact I don't think many have even thought about it.

By your socialist logic, the parts of Quebec that voted yes for independence should already be independent. Oh wait, you are an unprincipled one-sided fuck, I forgot.

1. You seem to be take for granted that this is unconditionally and automatically their position, regardless of what their actual position might be depending on context and negotiations should Quebec exiting Canada become a reality. They would probably be easier to win over if the trade-off was switching their Canadian citizenship for an American citizenship. Trading Reserve status for Tribal Sovereignty.

2. That is a retarded and insulting assertion. Nowhere do they mention the condition that "it remain a province". It simply grants the province this territory as its own. It's disgusting to even have to address such derisory claims, but it says a lot about your willingness to resort to shameless schemes in order to vent your anti-quebec angst.

3. Where do you even pick up that propaganda? Do you have sources or are you just making things up as you go? Am I being trolled? Are you Lester?


But thanks, it is good to know that a propaganda campaign is being waged on English-Canadians to indoctrinate them into this heartless stance concerning "kicking Quebec out and partitioning it while we're at it". We have our fair share of idiot fucks out here in Quebec believe me, but these English-Canadians who foment/endorse such hate mongering towards Quebec through these disgusting policy positions are the biggest bunch of heartless ingrate scum I've ever had the misfortune of witnessing: not satisfied with being part of a SUPER large country with SUPER prosperous lands and economy, they insist on pissing on their own brethren's lawn and encouraging outright fratricide through aggressive militarism towards their fellow founding nation. It shellshocks the fuck out of me to know that this is for real, that people can be so evil just because they feel they can get away with it.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 05, 2013 1:41 am

Americalex wrote:You lack the basic political education into the fact that Municipalities form a layer of government wielding delegated powers from the province. The sovereignty flows from the individuals to their state/province government. The provincial government then creates municipalities as it sees fit, and can modify them and change them as needed. If you wake up one day and decide you feel the time has come to tell us why you think it absolutely unconditionally has not choice but to be unfair to those living in the given region, let me know.

As a side note, this is one concept that I especially like about Canadian governence. The same principal legally applies here, but it is not practiced in reality. Therefore, you get all these municipal leaders who think they are untouchable fighting each other...and you end-up with (for example) over 100 municipal governments in the tri-county Metro Detroit area that can't get achieve any regional goals. (Along with those municipalities that get upset when the state suspends their local rule because they mismanaged their city...). Oh, to dream...
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Moose » Jan 05, 2013 11:55 pm

Americalex wrote:I wonder if there might be a movement in Conservative English-Canada to promote kicking Quebec out literally? "If they won't leave, we will make them leave" type of approach. That could indeed force a fragmentation to happen.

As a member of a younger generation, I'll be ashamed if we continue to send billions of dollars to Quebec especially when they continually spit in our faces.

Quebec owns about half of Canada's debt and only about 25% of our population. Especially in Western Canada, there are too many cultural similarities for us to continue to live as separate countries.

I feel disdain towards the British crown and I believe that the institution of the Presidency of the United States is the true symbolic and traditional representation of freedom.
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby Americalex » Jan 06, 2013 12:17 pm

jonathan.jam wrote:As a side note, this is one concept that I especially like about Canadian governence. The same principal legally applies here, but it is not practiced in reality. Therefore, you get all these municipal leaders who think they are untouchable fighting each other...and you end-up with (for example) over 100 municipal governments in the tri-county Metro Detroit area that can't get achieve any regional goals. (Along with those municipalities that get upset when the state suspends their local rule because they mismanaged their city...). Oh, to dream...

Their strength relies on the ignorance of the general populace basically. Out here they did a rebellion when the provincial government was attempting a full blown fusion of the many municipalities in and around the Greater Montreal Area. They fought back because ultimately they were up to keep the status quo and through it their jobs, so it was all a very self-serving effort on their part.

They were failing but then they figured that they could play this in the provincial election arena, and there they succeeded in making the government back off part of its planned agglomeration effort. They did so by spinning public opinion against this policy and lobbying for a government that would undo whatever the other was doing.

They are not toothless for sure, but at the same time, much of their strength lies in the fact that people simply don't understand federalism, so when such challenges occur the solution is always to start with education. Education about how things work and why, and if people don't get it, it is because they are up to no good and so they are acting as if they don't get it lol
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Re: Canadian fragmentation following Quebec secession

Postby jonathan.jam » Jan 06, 2013 1:42 pm

So the government basically did it and told the people to get over themselves?

Here in Michigan, the state government has been very anti-city. Counties and cities can't be merged unless both parties agree to it via a popular election. Land can be annexed from townships, but many townships around cities haved become charter townships (which means that it is virtually impossible for land to be annexed). Since amalgamation needs the support of the majority vote, I don't forsee it happening any time soon. It would likely do wonders for local/regional governance, but the will of the people just isn't there.
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