Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby GTADriver » Mar 21, 2015 11:10 pm

I only recently heard of anyone supporting Canada and the US joining. My kneejerk reaction is no. Curious by my reaction, I've been looking into the idea and considering my own reasons. I immigrated to Canada from Europe because I wanted to live in Canada. When I decided to leave, I wasn't immediately decided on where I wanted to move to. I researched Australia, America and Canada. There were pro's and con's to all three countries and family in two of the countries

I won't list the personal reasons for my decision to move to Canada, but there are reasons that were less personal.

Gun laws. I've read how different states have different gun laws and Canadian provinces could each have their own gun laws if they became states. But without borders between states, you would be hard pressed to stem the tides of gun ownership between states. If Canada joined the US, there would be much less control of the flow of guns into my province. Even if borders were put up for this purpose, it would effectively defeat the purpose of getting rid of borders.

Head of State and Head of Government. I dislike having the Head of State being elected. Not that I'm a fan of the Royal family, they should have been ditched for a Canadian Head of State a long time ago. But I favour an unelected Head of State to be available. I'm not a fan of the checks and balances scheme. I can't imagine Americans ever being willing to accept an unelected Head of State.

Sheer size. When you have a very large country, it can be difficult to make your voice heard. I think this is why American voter turn out is so low. When people feel like a drop in the ocean, they aren't as likely to participate. At the moment, Canadians can make their voice heard in a country with a relatively small population. It looks to me that Canadian States would have to compete a lot harder in a much larger country than we do currently.

Shrinking middle class. It's shrinking even faster with the States.

Education. There are extreme differences in quality of education in the US. That happens sometimes in Canada, but for the vast majority, the quality is pretty evenly spread. The American system has been aware of this inequality for a long time and shows no signs of improvement and sometimes, it seems as though many Americans just care whether their child has access to good education and don't give a shit about other peoples kids. I find this very disconcerting.

Healthcare. I'm not concerned with whether my healthcare is the best. I'm very much concerned about an equal playing field and fair distribution. Yes, I'm very much a socialist when it comes to healthcare and education. It seems as though college is becoming the new highschool in the US. But I think a secondary school diploma should be of high enough quality across the board that college isn't expected to fill in the gap in education to do entry level jobs. If nearly everyone in the US needs to go to college to earn a decent living, it means employers lack faith in their high schools ability to educate their population. Employers don't value state provided education. That doesn't sound like a country I want to raise my kids in.

I wouldn't be surprised if I could become more prosperous if Canada joined the US. But money isn't enough to sell me on joining the US. I need much better reasons. Anyway, just sharing my thoughts on the topic and interested in what other Canadians thoughts on these issues are, for and against. Of course, Americans are free to share. I'm just more interested in what Canadians think.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Windwalker » Mar 22, 2015 12:54 pm

^^^^
A prime example of why most Americans want to keep Canada separate.

Our ancestors (disillusioned with the socialist aspects of European society) gambled with their very lives, spending an immeasurable amount of blood, sweat, and tears carving a nation out of this vast wilderness. I don't respect Euro-socialists who want to come here and tell us how much better their ideas of governance is, riding the coat-tails of the pioneers who built this nation. (And not to insult Canadian nationalists, but Canada has a parasitic relationship with America, having over 70% of its economy dependent of trade and commerce set forth by American companies and American regulations).

I won't take the bate on your politically loaded statements (especially since you requested they be addressed by "Canadians" and not "Americans" lol). But I will comment on your insinuation that American voter turnout is low due to Americans feeling they have no voice. In truth, most Americans don't vote because they are content with their day-to-day lives and it isn't worth bothering to disrupt their daily routine to vote in local elections. In other words, it is because things run more smoothly here, not less. You will find that American turnout in Presidential elections, however, is indeed comparable to Canadian turnout.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby GTADriver » Mar 22, 2015 1:26 pm

While some Canadians press for closer ties with the US, I think it would be wiser to encourage trade outside of the US. Such as with China, India and the EU. Trading only with the US is foolish and putting all of our eggs in one basket. And worse still, my suspicion is confirmed that Americans don't see a friendship in this trading partnership. They see a parasitic relationship. Trading almost exclusively with the US is a mistake. Raw materials shouldn't be sold. Oil refineries should be built here. Lumber should be produced into goods here and exported. Water should be bottled by Canadians and exported. And there are plenty of Canadians that want to see the Canadian military better funded. The difficulty is making that happen.

Canadians are foolish to throw their lot in with Americans. The respect doesn't go both ways.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Americalex » Mar 22, 2015 1:41 pm

Image

I've spoken with many Britons who'd like to see some kind of framework so they could also join this expanded America if it ever happened, an alternative to the E.U. basically! So it is not limited solely to Canada, but within Canada the majority of support comes from Quebec, which is its own nation for all intents and purposes. I think it comes from a long history of peaceful and amicable co-existence... and the fact that both our countries are already integrated militarily, economically and geographically. So a lot of people are seeing why it would make sense to also unite politically: more impact in Washington than in Ottawa.

I think of it as a union of nations, the system itself, be it American or Canadian, is obviously open to mutation and modification. The proposition at its core is about merging two social organisms into a bigger system that is more valuable than the sum of its parts. As such the system is what would result from successfull negotiations that account for the complexity of the various dynamics involved with such a momentous possibility. For me it's about the West of the Western world coming together and showing how things can be done in a more civilized and evolved way: rather than petty bickering and hate, look at North America to witness what is the true future of mankind if it rises up to its potential.

Why would Canadians want to throw their lot with China? The USA is right next to us, no? Surely you can't deny the reality that 90% of the Canadian population lives close to the U.S. border and that Canada's history is anchored upon development resulting from trade and commerce that has naturally flowed north/south rather than east/west... Do you think that your wildly generalizing hostility towards American at large is due to your upbringing within a humanist societal framework that is itself extremely antipathic to American cultural dominance since WW2?
Let's face it, islamo-humanity is hellbent on genociding judeo-christendom.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Windwalker » Mar 22, 2015 2:24 pm

GTADriver wrote:While some Canadians press for closer ties with the US, I think it would be wiser to encourage trade outside of the US. Such as with China, India and the EU. Trading only with the US is foolish and putting all of our eggs in one basket. And worse still, my suspicion is confirmed that Americans don't see a friendship in this trading partnership. They see a parasitic relationship. Trading almost exclusively with the US is a mistake. Raw materials shouldn't be sold. Oil refineries should be built here. Lumber should be produced into goods here and exported. Water should be bottled by Canadians and exported. And there are plenty of Canadians that want to see the Canadian military better funded. The difficulty is making that happen.

Canadians are foolish to throw their lot in with Americans. The respect doesn't go both ways.


Your biggest thinking-error here is you are using the Canadian-vs.-American dichotomy as a synonym for the Socialism-vs.-Capitalism dichotomy, but that's a topic for a whole other thread.

Sadly, however, there are millions of Canadians (and Americans) who agree with your outdated 1990's concept of how global trade is conducted. In reality, Canada is trending toward less trade with China, India, and especially the EU, comparatively speaking that is. The US-EU trade relation is not only the largest, strongest, and by far fastest growing trade relationship in the world, but it is growing together at a faster rate than any other relation by far. And so goes it with the US-China trade relation, the US-India trade relation, and so on and so forth. Canada's never-ending stance of being "not-American" is ironically the most powerful wedge between it and the rest of the world, driving it ever economically closer to being a satellite-state of the United States. Canada becomes less and less relevant on the global stage the more it distances itself from the US, not the other way around.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Americalex » Mar 22, 2015 4:10 pm

GTADriver wrote:Canadians are foolish to throw their lot in with Americans. The respect doesn't go both ways.

Image
Let's face it, islamo-humanity is hellbent on genociding judeo-christendom.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Tidusx43 » Mar 22, 2015 9:19 pm

Peter Zeihan, author of a book i just read entitled "The accidental super power: The Next Generation of American Preeminence and the Coming Global Disorder" spends a good deal of his book analyzing the US/Canada relationship. The first part of the book essentially explains why betting against North America (particularly against the United states) is a losing game economically and geographically.
Zeihan essentially lays out Canada's problems as their demographics are bad and getting worse. Canada is aging pretty much as fast as Europe. This is important in so much as how one's age effects one's impact on the economy. Older people, particularly moving into mass retirement, do a lot less for the economy than a 29 year old paying off student loans, buying a house, having kids, ect.

Zeihan predicts Albertans will become increasingly uncomfortable being one of the only places Canada can rely on to receive the taxes it needs to implement its social programs. Zeihan essentially predicts the urge for Alberta to succeed into the US will increase because this.

Now im not here to promote Zeihan's predictions per say i'm mostly interested in his arguments on demographics as they aren't an issue a country can fix easily, you can't just pop out a 25 year old, the time frame to do so ended 25 years ago. Italy is past the point of population replacement, so are many other European nations. That means consumption lead growth in those nations is as good as it's going to be, right now. Once Germany ages to the point of retirement in about 10 years, what growth will there really be in Europe? China has the same problem. Canada is certainly free to turn to them, but i don't think they'll find a lasting solution.

[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIdUSqsz0Io [/youtube]
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby MrSG1 » Mar 22, 2015 11:39 pm

Windwalker wrote:^^^^
A prime example of why most Americans want to keep Canada separate.

Our ancestors (disillusioned with the socialist aspects of European society) gambled with their very lives, spending an immeasurable amount of blood, sweat, and tears carving a nation out of this vast wilderness. I don't respect Euro-socialists who want to come here and tell us how much better their ideas of governance is, riding the coat-tails of the pioneers who built this nation. (And not to insult Canadian nationalists, but Canada has a parasitic relationship with America, having over 70% of its economy dependent of trade and commerce set forth by American companies and American regulations).

I won't take the bate on your politically loaded statements (especially since you requested they be addressed by "Canadians" and not "Americans" lol). But I will comment on your insinuation that American voter turnout is low due to Americans feeling they have no voice. In truth, most Americans don't vote because they are content with their day-to-day lives and it isn't worth bothering to disrupt their daily routine to vote in local elections. In other words, it is because things run more smoothly here, not less. You will find that American turnout in Presidential elections, however, is indeed comparable to Canadian turnout.


Yeah, I wouldn't listen to him too much. Methinks that he was rejected for a green card honestly.

Personally, this is how I see gun control. While it is a no brainer, that my metro area, Toronto, is a very safe metro area, I'm sure that even with the low homicide rate, if I wanted to find a handgun, trust me, I could find one. I mean an "illegal" one, sure the CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency) can act as a filter and try to deter weapons smuggling, but a determined person could easily get through, and I'm sure it happens all the time.

The CBSA instead harasses citizens more or less on spending 100 bucks in the US. The CBSA are at the end of the day, just a big tax collector, I have crossed the Canada-US border many of times in my life, and it's going Canada-bound that's the larger pain, and when the CBSA talks about "smuggling", they mean John Smith, who did not declare his box of Trix he bought at the 7-Eleven, or tank of gas he bought for cheap at the Mobil.

You say GTADriver, ever tried to "drive" to Vancouver, have fun being frustrated as you pass Parry Sound heading north on Hwy 400, when you are down to single lane roads all the way up to Manitoba....while I do admit, southern Ontario has a decent freeway system, as well as Quebec and the Maritimes (especially in the last decade), getting around Canada by car is fairly difficult, and you'd be foolish not to use the 401 and get to I-90 somehow if you wanted to go to Vancouver.

I could go on much further on the issues surrounding Toronto and the GTA, specifically the huge problem of congestion, and how the powers that be are trying to make commuting by automobile as taboo as slavery. Personally, I think a big reason why the GTA is in the pickle it's in is due to the feds, they are the ones who made the GTA grow exponentially by allowing all the immigrants, mostly from third world countries here. Yet they turn their backs when our cities ask for money for serious infrastructure investments.

You can see my avatar, Highway 410 represents where I was born and grew up, Brampton, ON, I have seen this city transform from your stereotypical suburban place, where everyone knew each other on our street, to the indifferent place, where no one speaks English and at times I feel like a foreigner in my own city. You say Canadians are friendly, I find it unusual when probably the best times I've been treated were on the other side of the border, I'm absolutely serious.

But I commend you, GTADriver, for not bringing stupid Canadian nationalist rhetoric into the argument, such as ice hockey or beer, and what not. So at least you are much brighter than the average bear on that one.

As I see that my great city, Toronto, will probably suffer a huge downfall the way things are going, I do not foresee myself staying here forever, I hope one day I can move to SoCal, and leave this (at many times) miserable place behind me.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby -MM- » Mar 30, 2015 12:20 am

I will weigh in, even though I'm not canadian.

GTADriver wrote:Gun laws. I've read how different states have different gun laws and Canadian provinces could each have their own gun laws if they became states. But without borders between states, you would be hard pressed to stem the tides of gun ownership between states. If Canada joined the US, there would be much less control of the flow of guns into my province. Even if borders were put up for this purpose, it would effectively defeat the purpose of getting rid of borders.


This is a common thing I hear from Canadians - and people who have never been to the US in general. I think people just see a lot of the shootings and the media. Outside of police officers and gun shops/trade shows, I have never seen one gun out in public in my life. With that said, I do agree that we need to overhaul our gun laws (not gonna go in details on this, but a lot of the sane americans do think we need a gun reform while still keeping our 2nd amendment).

Outside of the realm of this discussion, but guns will be an issue for everyone sooner rather than later anyway as 3D printed guns are getting better and better while 3D printers are getting cheaper and cheaper (http://www.engadget.com/2015/03/26/grea ... to-rounds/)

GTADriver wrote:Head of State and Head of Government. I dislike having the Head of State being elected. Not that I'm a fan of the Royal family, they should have been ditched for a Canadian Head of State a long time ago. But I favour an unelected Head of State to be available. I'm not a fan of the checks and balances scheme. I can't imagine Americans ever being willing to accept an unelected Head of State.


Potatoes, potahtoes. No government is perfect. There could be some changes here and there, but some of it comes down to personal preference.

GTADriver wrote:Sheer size. When you have a very large country, it can be difficult to make your voice heard. I think this is why American voter turn out is so low. When people feel like a drop in the ocean, they aren't as likely to participate. At the moment, Canadians can make their voice heard in a country with a relatively small population. It looks to me that Canadian States would have to compete a lot harder in a much larger country than we do currently.

Shrinking middle class. It's shrinking even faster with the States.


These are poor arguments IMO. At least is not as poor as "I want to see Canada in the Olympic games" or "we are Canadians, not Americans" or some other nonsense like that.

GTADriver wrote:Education. There are extreme differences in quality of education in the US. That happens sometimes in Canada, but for the vast majority, the quality is pretty evenly spread. The American system has been aware of this inequality for a long time and shows no signs of improvement and sometimes, it seems as though many Americans just care whether their child has access to good education and don't give a shit about other peoples kids. I find this very disconcerting.


Can't comment from first hand experience about the education system in Canada. I have heard mixed bags on that one. Education reform is a big topic in the US though and I agree we need to do something. No one has come up with a feasible solution though.

GTADriver wrote:Healthcare. I'm not concerned with whether my healthcare is the best. I'm very much concerned about an equal playing field and fair distribution. Yes, I'm very much a socialist when it comes to healthcare and education. It seems as though college is becoming the new highschool in the US. But I think a secondary school diploma should be of high enough quality across the board that college isn't expected to fill in the gap in education to do entry level jobs. If nearly everyone in the US needs to go to college to earn a decent living, it means employers lack faith in their high schools ability to educate their population. Employers don't value state provided education. That doesn't sound like a country I want to raise my kids in.


I think the first part is a valid argument. Again, we need a healthcare reform in the US. I personally don't think Obamacare is the solution, and I don't want to comment on how Canada does it because I am not very knowledgeable in it.

I don't understand the latter part of your argument though as that is not exclusive to the USA. You're not going to get an entry level finance, consultant, IT, etc job with a private company in Canada, Europe, or another country without a college education. You can always find jobs that don't require a college degree and work your way up from there. Furthermore some tech jobs only require a year or two of training, and that is actually part of the reason Obama wants to make 2 years of college free, so kids get that training (and AA degree) and go straight to work.

As you said yourself, you can find great schools, healthcare, etc in the states, but you're more worried about the overall picture. Yes, the US does have lots of issues. Oftentimes when people talk about this annexation proposition, I hear Canadians bringing up all the problems that the US has while ignoring the problems they have at home.

GTADriver wrote:Canadians are foolish to throw their lot in with Americans. The respect doesn't go both ways.


Indeed it doesn't. All you have to do is look at comments like this and on the comments sections for any annexation or merger proposition. What you find there is that the majority of the comments are from Canadians patriots with a big anti american sentiment. Diane Francis has said as much (about anti american sentiment in Canada) in one of her talks. I have heard the same from a Canadian ex-pat friend of mine who lives in Boston now.

Granted, this might be a vocal internet minority, but vocal minority reach far and wide. IF this ever became a real topic, IMHO, the anti american sentiment there would be THE biggest roadblock of a possible union. Lots of folks ignore the fact that BC and AB have much more in common with WA and OR than they do with ON, and vice versa.

Overall you bring almost all, if not all, points canadians bring when talking against such a merger.


Tidusx43 wrote:Peter Zeihan, author of a book i just read entitled "The accidental super power: The Next Generation of American Preeminence and the Coming Global Disorder" spends a good deal of his book analyzing the US/Canada relationship. The first part of the book essentially explains why betting against North America (particularly against the United states) is a losing game economically and geographically.
Zeihan essentially lays out Canada's problems as their demographics are bad and getting worse. Canada is aging pretty much as fast as Europe. This is important in so much as how one's age effects one's impact on the economy. Older people, particularly moving into mass retirement, do a lot less for the economy than a 29 year old paying off student loans, buying a house, having kids, ect.

Zeihan predicts Albertans will become increasingly uncomfortable being one of the only places Canada can rely on to receive the taxes it needs to implement its social programs. Zeihan essentially predicts the urge for Alberta to succeed into the US will increase because this.

Now im not here to promote Zeihan's predictions per say i'm mostly interested in his arguments on demographics as they aren't an issue a country can fix easily, you can't just pop out a 25 year old, the time frame to do so ended 25 years ago. Italy is past the point of population replacement, so are many other European nations. That means consumption lead growth in those nations is as good as it's going to be, right now. Once Germany ages to the point of retirement in about 10 years, what growth will there really be in Europe? China has the same problem. Canada is certainly free to turn to them, but i don't think they'll find a lasting solution.

[youtube] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIdUSqsz0Io [/youtube]


This is an interview with Peter and with someone else talking about this:

https://soundcloud.com/thecharlesadlers ... the-united

https://soundcloud.com/thecharlesadlers ... ada-not-so

I also have heard that AB is possibly the most patriotic province in Canada and it would take a lot to get them to secede. They do have a secession movement, but I venture that it is not that big or serious (not any more serious than any secession group in the US, if I had to guess).

Ironically they have a group that has a page dedicated to talking about anti american sentiment and how Albertans do not share that view
http://www.freealberta.com/anti_americanism.html

One thing is very certain in my mind, if AB or QC were to secede (and become either independent or a US state), more provinces would follow. Peter Zeihan suggests that if AB does secede and become a US state, so will SK and possibly BC and QC later on. I think if QC leaves, so would the maritime provinces.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Windwalker » Mar 31, 2015 7:30 pm

MrSG1 wrote:
Windwalker wrote:^^^^
A prime example of why most Americans want to keep Canada separate.

Our ancestors (disillusioned with the socialist aspects of European society) gambled with their very lives, spending an immeasurable amount of blood, sweat, and tears carving a nation out of this vast wilderness. I don't respect Euro-socialists who want to come here and tell us how much better their ideas of governance is, riding the coat-tails of the pioneers who built this nation. (And not to insult Canadian nationalists, but Canada has a parasitic relationship with America, having over 70% of its economy dependent of trade and commerce set forth by American companies and American regulations).

I won't take the bate on your politically loaded statements (especially since you requested they be addressed by "Canadians" and not "Americans" lol). But I will comment on your insinuation that American voter turnout is low due to Americans feeling they have no voice. In truth, most Americans don't vote because they are content with their day-to-day lives and it isn't worth bothering to disrupt their daily routine to vote in local elections. In other words, it is because things run more smoothly here, not less. You will find that American turnout in Presidential elections, however, is indeed comparable to Canadian turnout.


Yeah, I wouldn't listen to him too much. Methinks that he was rejected for a green card honestly....


You are probably correct. It just touches a nerve with me when overt Socialists criticize America from a supposed "Canadian" point of view, then present broad-stroke criticisms of the United States. Canada isn't as "different" from America on most of the issues he pointed out as he would like to believe; his logic is like taking two cars that came off of the same production line right next to each other, and claiming that one of them gets better gas mileage because it was painted blue instead of red.

GTADriver wrote:Trading only with the US is foolish and putting all of our eggs in one basket. And worse still, my suspicion is confirmed that Americans don't see a friendship in this trading partnership. They see a parasitic relationship. Trading almost exclusively with the US is a mistake.


Perhaps the word "parasitic" is a bit strong. My initial instinct was to use the word "symbiotic" but I changed to "parasitic" for dramatic effect, and in an effort to draw attention to the fact that as things are currently set up, Canada benefits more from close relations with the US than the US does from close relations to Canada.

The post cold-war trading blocks of the 1990's have been largely eradicated and/or intermeshed, with the United States as one of the leading entities driving this globalization of trade. It isn't really possible for Canada to un-marry its economy from the economy of the US without simultaneously becoming ultra-protectionist from the rest of the world's nations as well.
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Re: Issues for Canadians joining the US.

Postby Americalex » Mar 31, 2015 10:18 pm

There's a chance we may be confronted with the ultimate humanist expression of hypocrisy. Consider this:

* GTADriver is from Europe
* GTADriver resides in Ontario
* GTADriver claims that Americans don't return the respect given to them
* GTADriver openly disrespects Americans
* Canadians and Britons are the two most respected nations by Americans
* GTADriver has literacy skills that suggest an anglophone upbringing
* A real chance exists that GTADriver is actually both British and Canadian.
* An humanist ingrate who does not return the respect shown toward Canadians & Britons by Americans?
Let's face it, islamo-humanity is hellbent on genociding judeo-christendom.
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