US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Nuke » Nov 25, 2017 9:47 pm

What do you guys think of this map of a hypothetical first US Presidential election featuring Canada?

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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Nov 28, 2017 3:50 pm

I could see an election panning out as indicated by the map above if the "Red" candidate was native of Ontario and had played some instrumental role in getting Canada to join the US (maybe that is how he or she convinced Canadians to join, so they could make that Candidate the new President?)

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The power of 1 person is often underestimated in situations like this... The US probably wouldn't exist without George Washington, for example. (Rather as the man or as the symbol is irrelevant.)

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Now that Prince Harry has made public with his decision to marry an American, maybe we can convince him to take over Ontario somehow and have it join the US, lol. A lot would probably depend on the political views and background of his bride-to-be in this scenario (if the goal were to make it fit the map above).
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Nuke » Dec 02, 2017 10:12 pm

Windwalker wrote:I could see an election panning out as indicated by the map above if the "Red" candidate was native of Ontario and had played some instrumental role in getting Canada to join the US (maybe that is how he or she convinced Canadians to join, so they could make that Candidate the new President?)

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The power of 1 person is often underestimated in situations like this... The US probably wouldn't exist without George Washington, for example. (Rather as the man or as the symbol is irrelevant.)

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Now that Prince Harry has made public with his decision to marry an American, maybe we can convince him to take over Ontario somehow and have it join the US, lol. A lot would probably depend on the political views and background of his bride-to-be in this scenario (if the goal were to make it fit the map above).

Let's say it's Donald Trump -- how would you expect it to go?

Here's another one with "swing states" (mostly within Canada, but also Minnesota on the border) uncolored, and the three Canadian territories merged into the Republican state of Alaska.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Bearsy » Dec 03, 2017 3:58 pm

I can't let it slip by a second time. That is the ugliest map of Ontario I have ever seen.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 03, 2017 11:34 pm

Ontario (and probably Quebec and the maritimes) I just can't imagine would ever go "red" instead of "blue" in the short term, especially so if the gop candidate was The Donald.

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I think the short-term effect of simply adding the Provinces as States would be a Democrat controlled Senate and White House for the next several decades. To get momentum in Canada for a gop candidate, as I said before, would probably require that Candidate be a very charismatic leader with Canadian roots.

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On a side note, it turns out Charles had cheated on Diana with a Canadian woman, who produced a child about the same age as William and Harry (and who looks exactly like them). Maybe canada can cut-the-cord with the Monarchy and make this dude their King? How about Canada as its own Kingdom, they wouldnt even have to change any laws that way in the short-term, just change the language.

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Also, this whole idea of trying to project which states would go which way........ one could present a strong argument that this isnactually the REASON the idea of this merger has been stagnant for 100 years, neither of the major parties in the US wants to allow ANY new States if they think it would vote the other way. We are ham-stringing our own economy with billions in waste and innefficiency to maintain the status quo (that is, pettiness being the predominant philosophy in DC).
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Dec 05, 2017 2:16 pm

Could Washington be bypassed or rather, sidelined, put before a fait accompli by states if they moved to force a constitutional amendment that lets canada join without relying on congress to get the ball rolling?

Partisan politics is all a show like wrestling, and a lot of humanists swear by the feeling it fills them with, able to spam their hate on externalizations at the expense of getting completely played for fools to be laughed at.

One way to "convince washington" is to simply bring up the idea with the people who actually feed policies to the DC beast, the CFR. I'm planning on pitching the idea to them and that way the rest can simply chug along effortlessly.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Dec 05, 2017 7:15 pm

There really is no precedent for new States at this time. It has been too long since the last time we had one.

Watching how PR unfolds will be interesting in that regard, and Pro-Statehood groups would be wise to take advantage of the media attention it will generate as PR transitions to Statehood.

I suppose the States could probably host a Constitutional Convention of some sort, and invite delegates from the Provinces to attend. Problem is, the bi-partizan sickness that currently ails us isn't isolated to DC, it has already metastasized into virtually all of our State level Legislative bodies as well.

Better to deal with 500 inept clowns than 100,000 inept clowns... Sort of the same logic as "voting for the lesser of 2 evils" as most American voters self-describe as doing on any given election day here.

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A good first step might be to gin-up interest enough in a majority of the State Legislatures for them to draft some sort of memorandum outlining how direct negotiations with the Provinces would work as such a massive level. A move like that (with the intent of bypassing DC) could probably still work in a top-down way in Canada via Canada giving the Provinces "permission" to participate in the discussion with the States.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Dec 05, 2017 11:41 pm

I like it, and the best place to start would be all the states whose #1 trading partner is Canada!

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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby -MM- » Jan 05, 2018 5:46 pm

I don't think it would go like that at all. I think even Alberta would be solid blue. Canadians want their socialized healthcare and socialized wellfare. After getting more and more political I'm actually questioning whether an annexation would work or if it would mess our political system up.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 05, 2018 9:35 pm

Valid concerns for sure, but doubling the size of the country is no small counterweight. Personally I think that Quebec would quickly be a swing state (we tend to easily shift party across the spectrum both federally and provincially).

Canadians like to vote counter to the American norm: You have Obama, we have Harper. You have Trump, we have Trudeau, and on and on and on. The same dichotomy often occurs within Canada between Quebec and the ROC. Quebec goes capitalist with the provincial liberals... English-Canada goes hardcore socialist with Albertan NDP and corrupt "drive the province through the ground" liberal-socialist Wynne in Ontario. It's a way to distinguish oneself from what seems foreign and outside. But once we are inside, the reverse may also be true: people suddenly go with the flow.

Disrupting the American system, certainly. Derailing it? I'm not so inclined to think so. I'm not a fan of democracy at all in any case. But ultimately, is putting conservative interests ahead of american interests the way to go?
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby -MM- » Jan 07, 2018 3:12 am

I am okay with disrupting the American system, but I don't think I would be willing to double the size of the country, even though it would be in America and Canada's best interest, if that meant the new pro forma country would completely unbalance the political status of the country. Adding another 20 democratic senators and a high number of democratic congress people would completely unbalance things, plus the electoral college votes that would quickly swing to democrats.

We would move from a center right country (probably the last developed country in the world outside of Asia that is center right) to a pretty far left country. I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice that. Some of America's core value is conservative in nature (i.e. freedom of speech and right to bear arms).

That said, I'm still not against it, but it has made me ponder. Maybe a domino effect might be a better way to go about it.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 07, 2018 11:43 am

I wonder if maybe I should modify the "observer" status to "hesitant" or something of the sort to convey the on the fence stance resulting of serious reservations about the prospect.

Korea and China are becoming more christian while the west is consistently becoming more humanist. It's ironic for sure but a christian China may be the best thing that ever happened to the world in recent memory.

Meanwhile as long as democracy imposes itself on our nations there is no outcome other than the socialist conglomerate as envisioned by the humanist lot, it's mathematically certain and we see it happen in spite of outliers like Trump.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Jan 08, 2018 2:58 am

We should remember the lesson of Alaska and Hawaii... It was assumed Hawaii would be a solid red state, and Alaska would be a solid blue state, so they were entered together to counter balance... but funny thing is the exact opposite happened in both states compared to the predictions. Becoming a State can have strange side effects on the local political system, shaking things both up and down.

If Quebec really wanted to be a State, the easiest way would be import a portion of the 700,000,000 people around the world that want to become Americans, and streamline their track to citizenship in Canada so they could vote...

This is how New England ultimately came to dominate the South both politically and militarily (and to a lesser extent culturally).

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There would be massive migration in both directions I think if the border completely opened up w/ US and Canada. There are many regions of rural America that are still driven by the pioneering tradition, and there is a lot of beautiful land up there.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 09, 2018 10:44 am

That's a very interesting depiction of the disruption effect, I don't think I could have envisioned it so effectively as you present it in that post. Canadians being part of the US, would indeed by disrupted just as much, in ways that would overall lessen the predicted impacts to the political balance of the Americanist approach.

As for going Domino, I guess for Quebec to start the ball (transliteration of quebec expression), there would need to be a way to include English-Canada and the USA in the negotiations that is non bellicose but rather cooperative. History has already establish that Quebec can hold referendums on independence, as part of multi-lateral negotiated exits. Surely we should be able to hold a referendum on annexation, switch directly from Canadian province to US state, without an intermediary stage.

English-Canada are principally worried about access to the saint-lawrence waterway, which of course would have to be managed in a way that meets their priorities. It should be attempted in a way that brings a win-win-win outcome. The main win for Quebecers is a currency that goes up 20%, cost of living that goes down by 20%, and taxes that goes down by 20%. Having access to live and work anywhere in the US would be no small perk.

Of recent memory Quebecers are always more interested in US elections than Canadian elections, by a factor of magnitude comparable to the NHL vs ping pong tournaments. For Quebec as a state, it opens up vast opportunities to develop hydro power, shale gas power, rare earth projects in the deep north. We can truly prosper beyond anything experienced thus far.

Integration with the New England area is a natural occurance. Quebec is the most culturally catholic place in Canada, New England is the most culturally catholic place in the US. What happens though is the unraveling. How does America deal with sudden petitions for statehood by Atlantic provinces and BC? It seems like Quebec could be the keystone that once removed, all others fold shorter thereafter, making the domino approach, illusory.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Jan 10, 2018 1:35 pm

Another approach would be for Quebec to break with Canada incrementally, instead of one giant referendum. A lot of the exit polls show many (enough of) the "no" votes in '95 were due to the unclear nature of what a "yes" vote would mean.

If Quebec held referendums on specific issues one at a time, giving themselves more autonomy in slices (and on the most relevant issues at hand) they could get to a point where becoming Independent or becoming a State would be a simple matter of filing the forms and waiting out the process.

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At any rate, Quebec giving itself more autonomy one issue at a time would create precedent for Canadian Provinces to begin acting like Republics within their own local governments, the supposed intent of the way the US is structured (though in reality the POTUS has more executive authority in the US than the Crown does in Canada (or the UK for that matter)).
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 10, 2018 11:22 pm

If I were to steer a clear path for Quebec as an independent state, I'd anchor it in the creation of a confederation of which Quebec would be the first and only member state. But with a fully fleshed out framework for allowing friendly nations to join it over time, capable of expanding and contracting. It's always easier to start fresh using the latest and greatest of all lessons learned than try to upgrade existing constructs.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Windwalker » Jan 11, 2018 12:59 pm

Americalex wrote:If I were to steer a clear path for Quebec as an independent state, I'd anchor it in the creation of a confederation of which Quebec would be the first and only member state. But with a fully fleshed out framework for allowing friendly nations to join it over time, capable of expanding and contracting. It's always easier to start fresh using the latest and greatest of all lessons learned than try to upgrade existing constructs.


Ahah! I like the idea. One could probably garner local leftist support and national rightist support for an 'expanded Quebec' something like the map here. (Upstate New York has wanted to separate from New York proper for some time now, but State Law requires a Constitutional Referendum at the State level to petition for it, which always gets voted down by the majority in New York City.. Vermont is known for its separatist (and Canadianesque) politics, and I threw New Hampshire and Maine in there too just to make it look pretty).

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I suppose the bottom line is whether or not British Canada has the right to control French Canada's destiny, based on the results of a war won by American Colonists nearly 250 years ago... As far as American leadership's role, it would be convincing them they are better off dealing with 2 voices to the North instead of just one.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 11, 2018 3:28 pm

Dealing with one is surely the preferred option :) As Quebec pivots into a healthy vibrant prosperous economy (and assuming they stay the course and keep the provincial liberals in power), it could become a case of "Flanders in North America".

I'm thinking in terms of a confederation of like minded free nations such as Norway, Switzerland, Ireland, Singapore, New Zealand, etc. With a clear defense integration, free flow of people and commerce, unified passports, but otherwise autonomous units able to conduct their own affairs in the way that suits them regionally.

It's all pie in the sky frankly lol But a sufficiently compelling cataloging and presentation of a vision for such an arrangement might just be enough to convince a lot of people to make the leap.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby -MM- » Jan 23, 2018 6:54 pm

Everything is pie in the sky right now lol. I don't think any kind of political annexation (of a province or of the whole country) will happen unless some major shift changes (i.e. economic depression for awhile, war, Islamiphication by Castreau, etc). I think we are more likely to see Puerto Rico being annexed, especially due to the economic climate there right now. They are really pushing for it.

That said, you guys are right. There are some things I won't compromise such as our bill of rights, but the good will outweigh the bad. Plus, yeah, a province can become 2 or 3 states and balance things out. I'm sure rural QC or rural AB (and even rural ON) are probably on the conservative side as well.
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Re: US-Canada partisan divisions: How would it go?

Postby Americalex » Jan 23, 2018 9:33 pm

That's certainly a correct assesment about rural Quebec. The Beauce region is the conservative heartland.

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