Parti 51

[Americalex]

They are launching their political campaign soon, I will attend their launch to see where this can go!

[Tyche]

I came across this while looking into Quebec’s political system a day or so ago, and it’s exciting to see new annexationist political organizing! The thought did cross my mind however, that independence with a Compact of Free Association with the United States might be more palatable to most Quebeckers. It seemed like the Parti 51 site at times really bends over backwards to try to make it seem like Quebec will have at the same time more sovereignty while also joining an even more integrated federation. What do you make of that idea? I’d imagine you’ve probably thought more about Quebec entering the Union more than anyone!

[Americalex]

Nice to meet you Tyche,

And thanks for posting here! Well, indeed I think I am lol

* I'm planning on doing a road trip to Beauce when they have their launch campaign in early July, to see what they are all about. They say they plan to have someone up for election in every district province wide, which is no small feat.
* The quebec liberals (center-right in Quebec, based on the European definition of liberal) are in disfavor for various reasons in spite of the economy going full throttle and outlook being very positive
* The CAQ is pseudo conservative "used car salesman" plant party for Parti Quebecois (social-democrat). Together along with Quebec Solidaire and the smaller ones they form the humanist, socialist delusional crowd.

With that said, my point is that Parti 51 could, with enough media attention, go from nobody to ruling party lol

* Last I checked, sovereignty-association with the United States might work, but it would be a new custom compact that does not align with any of the existing forms of vassalism offered by the US.
* I'm fine with both (statehood or SA), but I think I prefer outright Statehood and so do most who favor a switch. Imagine a direct switch from provincehood to statehood, with no chaos of independence inbetween, and this is what people will be proposing and going for.
* Buying power would go up 25%, cost of living would go down 25%, taxes would go down 25%, people would have tons of options to go live and work, even if they don't hold a stupid bachelor degree, etc.

Quebec would be free to power the east coast with renewable energy, develop our mining sector to ridiculously prosperous levels of activity, truly it wouldn't take long for Quebec to rise up as a strong shoulder within the US, thanks to all the synergies that membership would bring. We do well right now, even without it, but this inclusion in the American experience (as imperfect/flawed as is it) would really bring so many positives for Quebec to be a better contributing actor overall than it is within the Canadian framework. You never know, when Parti 51 were created they got a lot of mainstream media attention, this could work!

In Quebec, sovereignty is understood as having control over our governments. A sovereign nation doesn't have to be independent to get that... in fact being independent may not lead to sovereignty if the state is co-opted by external fifth columnists etc. Smaller states are easily fragilized by such take-overs etc. But if Quebecers decide they WANT a place in a strong alliance of the West for which it was initially invited as the best means of ensuring their interests going foward, then yes it can be perceived as having more control over our own affairs to be a highly intergrated U.S. state than being a province or independent country.

For sure, a keynote argument will be, influencing world events with our votes in Washington rather than in Ottawa. The US being the contemporary center of political, military and economic power in the West brings its own set of issues that frankly Canada doesn't have to suffer through or deal with, however I think Quebecers can perceive the value of being a constructive member in such an arrangement, especially considering the natural geographical, cultural and historical ties that make us more than mere neighbors. Can Quebec be successful in Canada? yes. As an independent country? yes. As an American state? yes.

But a decision to join the US as a state would alter the course of western civilization in a way that would be very positive overall, in my opinion. Especially considering the hatred westerners are currently subjected to from various quarters, most notably the humanist and islamist ones. We're at the crossroad of the American, Canadian, British and French cultures, and our own roots are norman. If the heart of the West decides to tilt the balance towards a manifest destiny such as this, surely it will have repercussions that will invigorate and energize an otherwise fast eroding tradition of judeo-christian capitalism in this world.

[Americalex]

Also worthy of note is well known conservative Maxime Bernier, who lost the conservative party nomination to Andrew Sheer, knows the leader of the Parti 51 personally. He recently burned all his bridges with the federal conservatives by saying that they dairy price fixing scheme is bad and that it should be removed (in agreement with Trump). Both of he and the founder of Parti 51 are from Beauce, a very "small business enterpreneur" mentality region of Quebec.

Bernier got booted from the conservative party for saying "fake conservatives" from the dairy lobby torpedoed his candidacy by supporting Sheer. Who knows, perhaps he might show up as a Parti 51 candidate, that would certainly shake things up a lot and bring much attention to them come the fall elections in Quebec. I'll try to attend their launch to find out more about what they are about and I'll report my findings here. It's very interesting to see such a group actually take shape!

[Windwalker]

Couldn't Quebec circumvent Canada's authority by applying for Statehood as a State in the United Kingdom? This could be an alternative form of progressing from Provincial-ness to Statehood without the uncertainty of an independent period.

If Quebec could demonstrate functioning well as a State within the UK, it could be precedent for France and the Atlantic Provinces to join the UK as well. Modern transportation and information networks have negated pretty much every reason for Canada to have split with the UK in the first place, so why continue?

(Other than I thin the US and the UK still have a sort of "gentleman's agreement" type of setup banning European powers from having new territory in North America... you would probably get some protest out of Washington and some impetus to bring Quebec in as a State under conditions favorable to Quebec on the southern side of the border if it became a competition with the UK over who gets it.

_____________________________

EDIT: In fact, why stop there? Quebec could do a referendum for Statehood into the UK with the following options:

A. a trial period of "____" while Provincial apparatus are upgraded to the level of Statehood across Quebec.
B. upon completion of trial and upgrade period, a referendum with the following options:
---1. Return to provincial status and become a signatory of Canada's Constitution.
---2. Full Statehood in the United Kingdom
---3. Full Statehood (or whatever they call it there) in France
---4. Full Statehood in the United States.

Then sit back and watch the 3 most powerful nations in the world pour all their energy into vying for Quebec's fancy. The trick would be this..... Can a State Constitution be crafted that would be acceptable by the UK, France, and the US all three simultaneously? If the answer is "Yes!" the Quebec is on the precipice of being the center of the world for at least a century. Fuck it, lets just build a giant mega-dam at Quebec City in the shape of the fleur-de-lis and raise the Great Lakes until Niagara Falls disappears. (an act that would also require building a mega-dam at Chicago, and 2 mega-dams in New York, and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) Toronto, Ottawa, and Detroit would need to be relocated and/or abandoned before they get buried under several meters of lake-water.

[Americalex]

Becoming part of France is a no go lol Not while they are a humanist republic. I remember Vicomte13 suggested that in the past. I get your point of levying one option against the other, creating a competitive offering situation, but that place feels more foreign to most here than would be comfortable joining. Quebec as an E.U. country? Again, the humanistry prevents it.

I missed the meeting of Parti 51, it was a 3 hour drive and I simply didn't have the stomach for it when I woke up Sunday morning. I would have had to go Saturday and sleep there to be fresh for it, but things didn't turn out that way. In any case what Parti 51 is doing is worth watching, now they are truly the vanguard and leadership of the movement, I wish them well.

Meanwhile I'm content with continuing to be an armchair politician from the calmness of these secluded forums lol

[Windwalker]

I missed the meeting of Parti 51, it was a 3 hour drive and I simply didn't have the stomach for it when I woke up Sunday morning. I would have had to go Saturday and sleep there to be fresh for it, but things didn't turn out that way. In any case what Parti 51 is doing is worth watching, now they are truly the vanguard and leadership of the movement, I wish them well.

Meanwhile I'm content with continuing to be an armchair politician from the calmness of these secluded forums lol

Hey, everyone needs a forum for armchair-politicizing, right?

The P.C. culture fights fervently to draw not only dupes, but also our world's most cunning Intellects toward the ever-present black hole of average-ness where advertisers thrive.

The vibe I am getting from P51 right now is, they are still just in a formative stage where people with a common object have yet to hash out a plan or a cohesive combined-mission. You probably just missed a lot of polite bickering focused more on personal introductions, rather than the feel for the primary direction of the movement to come from it.

Becoming part of France is a no go lol Not while they are a humanist republic. I remember Vicomte13 suggested that in the past. I get your point of levying one option against the other, creating a competitive offering situation, but that place feels more foreign to most here than would be comfortable joining. Quebec as an E.U. country? Again, the humanistry prevents it.

Admittedly, the sophistication of my understanding of the inner workings of French Politics is basically limited to their diplomatic relations with the US during points in history where the two Nations converged to some degree. You are probably correct that it would be impossible for Quebec to produce a State level constitution that would Jive with France's current political system....

Quebec developing a State Constitution that could be accepted by the UK or the USA that the People of Quebec would be happy with is something with tangible potential, if it is possible. Although both the USA and UK are both rooted in the same legal systems, there has undoubtedly been as much divergence and there has been convergence as the two branches grew separately. My thoughts on adding French Statehood to the hypothetical ticket is, it would split the Quebecer/Humanist vote between reverting to Canadian Provincial status and Franch-Statehood. Unless you has some sort of contingency plan for getting Quebec's Humanist sub-population onboard with the idea of Statehood, be it with whatever Nation is developed enough to accommodate full States.

I suppose an out-of-the-box option would be for Quebec to apply to become the first Canadian State. But considering Canada is intrinsically constructed to operate as one giant mega-state loyal, but independent of the UK, "Canadian States" in the plural sense, is an oxymoron. But then again the "Country" of Canada officially recognizing Quebec's "distinct region" status (or whatever they call it) is a tacit admission by the Canadian Government that Canada will eventually cease to exist and become full States.

[Windwalker]

Now that the UK has officially stated its intent to break with Europe, they could become exempt from the US ban on direct European holdings on the North American Continent?

Perhaps a compromise that would allow full "Canadian States" would be Canadian States having representatives in both Washington and in London?

If you did that, though, the USA and the UK would have to come to an agreement where the Canadian States only pay 50% of their Federal liabilities and only receive 50% of their federal funding from Washington and London, respectively.

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Or maybe they get full federal funding from the US, but only one Senator, and half the Representatives. Then they could negotiate how much representation they have with London from a standpoint of London not being on the hook for most of their projects (financially speaking). All military bases in the region upgrading to Statehood would also have to conduct an official change-of-command ceremony from Canadian leadership to one of joint UK/US command.

[Windwalker]

One of the long-term side effects of a State given a special exemption to have mixed Loyalties with the US/UK would be young men from the region would have the option of choosing to register for either the USA or the UK draft registry (or both) without having to give up up any of their rights if they felt a draft-movement was unjustified.

The long-term side affect of allowing such, would be it would eventually filter into the entire populations of the UK and the USA... Americans could avoid the US draft by alternately registering with the UK draft, and vice-versa....

The advantage for the Military itself would be a great number of young men, voluntarily, would duel-register for both drafts.

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The ability of the UK to directly draft conscripts from North America would put some real muscle behind their Brexit negotiations. the UK would have the power-projection to win a war of attrition with the combined EU Nations without the need for Washington's permission... That might be the incentive Germany finally needs to start pulling their own weight, from a security standpoint, that is. (Turkey's recent "performance" if you can even call it that, in Northern Syria pretty much proved that even a fully-integrated German/Turk military force is still no match for Russia without NATO assistance.)

The USA, on the other hand, would gain far less militarily than the UK would, but would still have a net-gain in available manpower, and more direct strategic and economic control over the continent of North America, from the perspective of military-preparedness.

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-Women are allowed the personal power to choose life and death, provided that life exists within their epidermic barrier.

-Men are allowed ONLY the personal power to choose personal enslavement and/or personal death if they do not sign a contract upon reaching adulthood agreeing that the Government owns the entirety of their Person during times of war, and have no say as to which Nation their body belongs to without undergoing an extensive immigration process.

Some Justice in that, eh
Can't we just at least give a guy a chance at freedom? Maybe someday....

[Windwalker]

One of the long-term side effects of a State given a special exemption to have mixed Loyalties with the US/UK would be young men from the region would have the option of choosing to register for either the USA or the UK draft registry (or both) without having to give up up any of their rights if they felt a draft-movement was unjustified.

The long-term side affect of allowing such, would be it would eventually filter into the entire populations of the UK and the USA... Americans could avoid the US draft by alternately registering with the UK draft, and vice-versa....

The advantage for the Military itself would be a great number of young men, voluntarily, would duel-register for both drafts.

--------------

The ability of the UK to directly draft conscripts from North America would put some real muscle behind their Brexit negotiations. the UK would have the power-projection to win a war of attrition with the combined EU Nations without the need for Washington's permission... That might be the incentive Germany finally needs to start pulling their own weight, from a security standpoint, that is. (Turkey's recent "performance" if you can even call it that, in Northern Syria pretty much proved that even a fully-integrated German/Turk military force is still no match for Russia without NATO assistance.)

The USA, on the other hand, would gain far less militarily than the UK would, but would still have a net-gain in available manpower, and more direct strategic and economic control over the continent of North America, from the perspective of military-preparedness.

---------------

-Women are allowed the personal power to choose life and death, provided that life exists within their epidermic barrier.

-Men are allowed ONLY the personal power to choose personal enslavement and/or personal death if they do not sign a contract upon reaching adulthood agreeing that the Government owns the entirety of their Person during times of war, and have no say as to which Nation their body belongs to without undergoing an extensive immigration process.

Some Justice in that, eh
Can't we just at least give a guy a chance at freedom? Maybe someday....

And the dirty little secret is, the Military is fighting to rectify the imbalance by tricking Women into making themselves eligible to be drafted. The military has the right to exercise some limited reproductive-rights over its employees, then bata-bing bada-boom, all is equal again by BOTH genders giving up rights instead of Men gaining a few small choices.

Then again, the Government forcing Women to give birth to unwanted children by drafting them and ordering them to let it live might not be a bad thing... it would be a quick ticket out of town and into a job for young women who had been assaulted or who were living in a broken home environment.

[Windwalker]

Of course you are both right, but the bigger question is where does the "self" end and the "group" begin?
Most Human beings consider their "self" to be an esoteric "awareness" if you will.... as in the, "I AM a body"/"I HAVE a body" dichotomy. Greater than 85% of Humanity currently prescribes to the latter, not the former.

The "Me" in each of us is a spirit/intellect that owns and/or occupies our current body, or so the current consensus would have it. We all still practice Slavery at a personal level, in which we see our own bodies as our personal slaves. Women currently take it one step further by allowing themselves the right to practice a form of intra-slavery in which they claim ownership of other human beings who currently reside within their epidermic barrier.

[Windwalker]

Women currently take it one step further by allowing themselves the right to practice a form of intra-slavery in which they claim ownership of other human beings who currently reside within their epidermic barrier.

So what you are saying is, you are pro-choice, but that you also believe that when a Women exercises the right to abort, she is practicing a crime that falls on the Slavery spectrum, not the murder/manslaughter spectrum?

[Windwalker]

Women currently take it one step further by allowing themselves the right to practice a form of intra-slavery in which they claim ownership of other human beings who currently reside within their epidermic barrier.

So what you are saying is, you are pro-choice, but that you also believe that when a Women exercises the right to abort, she is practicing a crime that falls on the Slavery spectrum, not the murder/manslaughter spectrum?

Precisely. Civil Rights begin at birth, thus the fetus has "Slave" status to the mother, not "dead tissue" status as is the current assumption. Slavery is unconstitutional, as is banning abortion, but for some reason only one side of this argument has been explored.

[Windwalker]

and don't forget, there is precedent for the US Military intervening to prevent the practice of Slavery. The second Women "win" their battle to become draft-eligible, is the very second the Department of Defense becomes more powerful than the Congress and the Justice combined.

[Windwalker]

and don't forget, there is precedent for the US Military intervening to prevent the practice of Slavery. The second Women "win" their battle to become draft-eligible, is the very second the Department of Defense becomes more powerful than the Congress and the Justice combined.

You are correct. It would give the POTUS, as Commander in Chief, the power to indiscriminately place all of his or her political opponents (or whatever group him or her chose) or even the entire US Population under the rule of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice by simple decree....

Of course an immediate hot-war style civil confrontation would immediately ensue, but the rule of law would actually be on the side of the newly formed military dictatorship.

There are still dozens of offenses on the books in the UCMJ for which field commanders are allowed to line people up and execute them on the spot. Obviously, we don't practice it, but it is legal to under UCMJ.

Don't think it is impossible, it has happened to nearly every great civilization at some point in its history. The United States was arguably at temporary dictatorship during WW2, so lets keep our fingers crossed that counts as ours and we never have to experience a real one.

[Bayowolf]

and don't forget, there is precedent for the US Military intervening to prevent the practice of Slavery. The second Women "win" their battle to become draft-eligible, is the very second the Department of Defense becomes more powerful than the Congress and the Justice combined.

You are correct. It would give the POTUS, as Commander in Chief, the power to indiscriminately place all of his or her political opponents (or whatever group him or her chose) or even the entire US Population under the rule of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice by simple decree....

How would he do that under the Constitution?

BTW: You were responding to yourself, telling yourself that "you" are correct; you may want to watch out for the guys in the lab coats carrying the butterfly nets.

[Americalex]

It's a judeo-christian form of humor, the joke's on you I guess

[Bayowolf]

and don't forget, there is precedent for the US Military intervening to prevent the practice of Slavery. The second Women "win" their battle to become draft-eligible, is the very second the Department of Defense becomes more powerful than the Congress and the Justice combined.

You are correct. It would give the POTUS, as Commander in Chief, the power to indiscriminately place all of his or her political opponents (or whatever group him or her chose) or even the entire US Population under the rule of the Uniformed Code of Military Justice by simple decree....

How would he do that under the Constitution?

Never mind the bollocks...I'm asking a legitimate question.

[Windwalker]

When the POTUS declares a state of emergency over a specified geographic region within the US contiguous territory, the Civilian legal system becomes subverted by the UCMJ and the Military has supreme authority over civilians as if they were conducting a Combat Operation within that region. During a declared state of emergency, the Military has the authority to apply the UCMJ to civilians as if they were untrained Conscripts and/or civilians on a battlefield...

As I stated, any such action would almost certainly precipitate into a Civil War if the "emergency" wasn't genuine, but the rule-of-law would be with the Military, not the other organizations that would choose to oppose them.

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It would be dangerous to give the Executive Branch the capability of drafting 100% of the US fighting-age population. Right now they only have control of about 35% of us.

[Americalex]

It's a judeo-christian form of humor, the joke's on you I guess

@Bayowolf
At that moment I was giving him the benefit of doubt, but I think you were on to something. You are a veteran so perhaps you are better equipped to relate to his degrading situation.. I stand corrected and was wrong on this.